After our classroom discussion on your selected book of The Odyssey, write a 2-3 paragraph (and we're talking well-developed paragraphs here) reflection on the book and our discussion. You might consider the following as you develop your response:
* What do you like most/least about this book in the epic?
* What did you learn from our discussion?
* What questions about this book do you still have after our discussion?
* What is the role of this book in the overall epic?
* What connections are you noticing between this book and others in the epic?
* What ideas do you have of other ways we could have approached our study of this book in class?
* What role did you play in the class discussion and why?
As always, proofread and revise before you post.
I liked book 6, which we had a discussion on, because of how it portrayed Odysseus. Odysseus is different from the heroes of the other books we have read such as Oedipus and Othello, who seem to portray the role of the infallible, arrogant hero. Right off the bat we can see that Odysseus is someone who has that self awareness about him. He is the only protagonist of the books we've read so far that has wisdom and total control of himself.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I knew almost all of Mrs. Gahan's points before she brought them up. As a matter of fact, many of my discussion questions were the exact same as her points. There was one huge thing that I did learn from the discussion of my book and that was the timeline of events. Before the discussion, I always thought that Odysseus was trapped on Ogygia for seven years first and then all of his adventures took place after that, but it turns out the opposite is what occurred. The big question I still have is, why does Athena help out Odysseus so much? I'm still not sure if it's because she feels guilty for causing this to happen to Odysseus, she just likes Odysseus in general because of his wisdom and cunning that closely resembles her, or some other reason entirely.
I felt book six could've been done better during class. We really didn't discuss it during class. It was more like a lecture and I feel my discussion questions didn't serve that much of a purpose. Also I think we could've explored deeper into a few topics like the double standard among the gods and why Odysseus seems so wary around every god he meets. Finally, I wonder if Calypso knew what would happen to Odysseus and his ship before he left.
Book 9 was my favorite book so far that I have read! Partially due to the humor of "nobody", but also the meaning of the book. By that I mean the concepts that we discussed in class. A few really intrigued me and urged me to do more research as to why this was. For example, the topic of hospitality was questioned in this book when Odysseus barges into the giant's house and starts to eat all of his food. This is where I first see Odysseus get out of line. Hosts are supposed to invite a guest in for comfort and food, not slip through the front door and just start bombarding their food supply.
ReplyDeleteAnother subject that I learned from the class discussion was that Odysseus creates his own trouble. He makes the situations more complicated than they need to be. For example, he taunts a giant in his own house while he is eating all of his food! If Odysseus may have explained that they had no food or water or they were in need of shelter, that could of increased their chances of Polyphemus not eating them on sight. I think it was pretty clear that the role of this book was to set off Odysseus's journey and this was his first chapter of his story as he is telling this to the Phaeacians. The biggest connection I noticed between this book and other books we have read this year is that every major character has an opposite or dual personality. Odysseus starts off as a noble hero that is trying to find his way home in the reader's eyes, but he becomes this cocky, overconfident man who makes his journey much harder than it needs to be. I guarantee that over half of his journey wouldn't have even happened if he could have just kept his mouth shut and only talked when it was necessary.
I felt I played a leadership role in class by giving good kick-off topics to discuss and when my classmates would answer the question, I would follow up with an analytical question or thought would lead into an even bigger discussion on that topic! I felt that I participated well in this discussion and I actually want to lead another one soon!
Book 9 was my favorite book so far that I have read! Partially due to the humor of "nobody", but also the meaning of the book. By that I mean the concepts that we discussed in class. A few really intrigued me and urged me to do more research as to why this was. For example, the topic of hospitality was questioned in this book when Odysseus barges into the giant's house and starts to eat all of his food. This is where I first see Odysseus get out of line. Hosts are supposed to invite a guest in for comfort and food, not slip through the front door and just start bombarding their food supply.
ReplyDeleteAnother subject that I learned from the class discussion was that Odysseus creates his own trouble. He makes the situations more complicated than they need to be. For example, he taunts a giant in his own house while he is eating all of his food! If Odysseus may have explained that they had no food or water or they were in need of shelter, that could of increased their chances of Polyphemus not eating them on sight. I think it was pretty clear that the role of this book was to set off Odysseus's journey and this was his first chapter of his story as he is telling this to the Phaeacians. The biggest connection I noticed between this book and other books we have read this year is that every major character has an opposite or dual personality. Odysseus starts off as a noble hero that is trying to find his way home in the reader's eyes, but he becomes this cocky, overconfident man who makes his journey much harder than it needs to be. I guarantee that over half of his journey wouldn't have even happened if he could have just kept his mouth shut and only talked when it was necessary.
I felt I played a leadership role in class by giving good kick-off topics to discuss and when my classmates would answer the question, I would follow up with an analytical question or thought would lead into an even bigger discussion on that topic! I felt that I participated well in this discussion and I actually want to lead another one soon!
ReplyDeleteBook 9 really interested me because it was the first time we heard about Odysseus journey from his point of view. Odysseus really emphasizes himself as the hero in book 9 and we always hear from other people how great he is but this is the first time we actually hear it from himself. It was interesting to see how Odysseus taunted Polyphemus and throughout book 9 you could tell Odysseus was very proud of himself. We discussed the topic of who was more out of place in book 9, Odysseus for walking into Ployphemus' house, eating his food, and expecting a gift; or Polyphemus who ate Odysseus's men and tried to kill the rest. I thought it was Polyphemus because obviously Odysseus was being extremely rude but Polyphemus reacted by trying to kill all of Odysseus men. In the modern day world Odysseus would seem more out of place because Polyphemus wouldn't have eaten the men in the modern world he just would have called the police. But after our discussion I came up with a question of my own. Would Polyphemus have reacted differently if Odysseus and his shipmates were more polite when they showed up, or is Polyphemus just plain evil? It really made me question the character of Odysseus as well as Polyphemus.
I felt like I played a major role in our discussion in class because I had the questions and I thoroughly read the book and knew it forwards and backwards. It was also my favorite book we have read so far. I usually started the questions and helped transition the class from one subject to another after we discussed each question. We actually got to talk about every single one of my questions in class and the discussion went well and took the whole class time. During our discussion I felt like it got out of control at some points but Sidak and I tried to maintain a calm controlled environment. I really liked how Sidak and I had the floor and we could run the discussion. We were supposed to be experts on our book and I felt like we were. I especially hope that the people who are experts on their book get to lead the discussion because it went extremely well for me.
Good feedback, Billy. Thanks. I am going to let students take the lead tomorrow. I know it may be too little too late, but I agree that student leaders usually lead to the most engaging discussions.
DeleteThe Cyclops and the Greeks, Native Americans and the U.S government, Cortes and the Aztecs, they all were aggressors and victims of culture shock. I like because it shows the truth. Book nine of the Odyssey gives another picture of certain humans wanting to be the best and culturally correct civilization. Odysseus did not know if the Cyclops was "violent, savage, and lawless or friendly to strangers, god-fearing men," and I love this mistake. It is the stereotype that everyone is either this or that. Why cannot people be on either side? The reason for this is that everyone has been taught that there are two paths in life, when in fact there is a multitude of paths. In school, you can choose your classes. As a grownup, you can choose any job you want. In life, there are an infinite number of doors as long mind and Odysseus failed in keeping his open.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus thought that the culture of the Greeks and their emphasis on hospitality had spread throughout the known world just like the beliefs of Christianity for the Old World traveling to the New World. The Aztecs threw down the bible because they did not know what it was; however, Polyphemus understood what Odysseus was talking and still ate his sailors. I love how humanity, when meeting a new culture, do not take time to understand. They immediately think that their way of life is universal. At least Odysseus did not try to wipe out the entire Cyclops race. I do not know why Odysseus would try to assert his belief in another man's home. He should have never even gone in without asking permission first, yet I love his mistakes. His mistakes explain how the world works in this present day and age.
Book 9 of the Odyssey was by far the best book so far because it shows the many life experiences that man encounters even in modern time--it shows things that will never cease to exist as long as mankind lives. It shows greed and violence with the Cicones, drugs and addiction with the Lotus eaters, and colonialism and bullying with the Cyclops. The idea of colonialism was very well covered in class, and how Odysseus insults and tries to take control of the Cyclops: "A grim loner, dead set in his own lawless ways. Here was a piece of work, by god, a monster built like no mortal" (9.210-212). What wasn’t covered as well was how each place Odysseus went to there was some bad act of human kind that took place; the discussion was fixated on the Cyclops more than it should have been--the other islands were important too. This book is both important and interesting because it shows the ideal version of what an "outsider" or "monster" is because they were both monsters in each other’s eyes.
ReplyDeleteEveryone should take away from this chapter that people should not be judged solely on their looks. The Cyclops and Odysseus both judged each other too soon, besides the fact that they both thought each other were monsters because they were two completely different looking people: they both underestimated each other. Odysseus judged Polyphemus as some ugly, one-eyed, lawless monster that he could take control of easily despite his size, when he was really just a simple shepherd who kept to himself and didn't bother anyone. Polyphemus' quote perfectly describes how he viewed Odysseus: "But I always looked for a handsome giant man to cross my path, some fighter clad in a power like armor-plate, but now look what a dwarf, a spineless good-for-nothing, stuns me with wine, then gouges out my eye!" (9.571-574). Polyphemus thought Odysseus was a weak, tiny and dumb human that he could easily manipulate also. Polyphemus wasn't exactly evil; he was defending his own territory against outsiders just as Odysseus would do to if we found out about the suitors, and because they both judged each other, they both lost something: Polyphemus lost his vision, and Odysseus lost his best men.
In Book 9: In the One-Eyed Giant’s Cave, I really enjoyed reading through and seeing the vast contrasts between the relationship of man and land. I also liked the repetition in this book more than the others. I preferred seeing the different repetitions and trying to compare them. For example, “When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more,” and “They swung aboard, they sat to the oars in ranks and in rhythm churned the water white with stroke on stroke” were repeated multiple times; however, one quote is talking about the unity and strength of man versus a goddess and yet both are things you can count on happening everyday -- the sun rising every day and men working together towards something. I have a theory that every time “When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more” is spoken, or written, the reader can tell if Odysseus will have a good or bad day. If the last time “When young Dawn with her rose-red fingers shone once more” was spoken Odysseus had a bad day, Odysseus would have a good day and vice verse.
ReplyDeleteIn our discussion I learned that the way Odysseus treats Polyphemus is very similar to what is happening in Ithaca with all of Penelope’s suitors. Also we brought up a very good idea that Odysseus is very polite and hospitable when with mortals, and when he is with immortals he is mean and snarky, almost as if his wild side comes out. I believe Mrs. Gahan and Jake brought up a good topic that Odysseus could have completely over exaggerated when he described the Cyclops. Coming back to the topic of colonialism and how the Cyclops were different, like Africans to Europeans, and Odysseus and the Europeans came in and said the way of the Cyclops’ and Africans’ life was wrong. No one is right or wrong, it is just each individual region’s way of life. Book 9 was very important in the epic because Odysseus was cursed by Polyphemus! This is definitely the beginning of the ten long years journey home to Ithaca.
Love the tracking of Dawn.
DeleteBook 10 is not my favorite book so far. I dislike how Odysseus was at Circe's palace for an absurd amount of time, so I got the feeling that he wants to stay with Circe more than he wants to go home because he was there for an entire year. His men are the ones who end up persuading him to leave, "Captain, this is madness! High time you thought of your own home at last" (Homer 245). If his men never pleaded him to leave, would Odysseus have ever thought of leaving for home? I wish we could have also talked about whether Odysseus is in love with Circe or not because his long stay at her palace hints to a yes in my opinion. I also really wanted to know why Circe turned Odysseus' men into pigs. Does she think mortal men are like pigs?
ReplyDeleteWhile reading book 10, I realized someone was missing from the book. Athena was missing. Where is Athena now? She did not come in anywhere in the story Odysseus is telling so far. Isn't she supposed to be protecting Odysseus. There are no signs that she is protecting him in book 10 or any of the earlier books when he begins to talk of his story/journey from the beginning. Also, did Hermes come on his own when he came to help Odysseus or had some other god sent him? After reading this book, I think that Odysseus really does not want to go home because he is always delaying things. This is why he is so complicated as a person because he complains to his hosts that he wants to desperately leave for home, but then he stays for long periods of time at different host's houses. He doesn't know what he wants. He wants to be both a guest at a stranger's house and a native at his home, but you cannot be both at the same time.
Good points, Janet!
DeleteIn the class discussion, the top ten list(which was of contradictions)wasn't talked about very much. This is an important part of reading this book, seeing as Odysseus is known as the man of twists and turns, and that not everything in this book is purely what it appears to be after the first read. The part that should have been discussed, and one that never got resolved, regarded King Alcinous and his people. In book 7, why did King Alcinous says the gods never come disguised, when in the beginning of book 8, it says “Athena started roaming up and down the town , in build and voice the wise Alcinous’ herald”(8.8-9). Why, if the gods loved this city so much and had never disguised themselves in the past, would they choose to do so now? Surely it was not for Odysseus' sake, as he knew Athena was helping him.
ReplyDeleteThe actions of King Alcinous' men were also confusing. In book 7, Odysseus is told by Athena that “The men here never suffer strangers gladly, have no love for hosting a man from foreign land” (7.133) However, In book 8, Odysseus is treated very well by the king and his people, even taking the place of the king’s favorite son at the feast. The people who supposedly didn't like strangers knew literally nothing about Odysseus, making him by definition a stranger, yet they did not seem at all hostile towards him. Odysseus' motive for lying to the king about his interactions with Nausicaa also remained unresolved. In book 7, Odysseus tells King Alcinous that the king’s daughter “Urged me herself to follow with her maids. I chose not to, fearing embarrassment” (7.349-350). However, in book 6, Nausicaa tells Odysseus to “Take a seat there, wait a while, and give us time to make it into town and reach my father’s house. Then, when you think we are home walk on yourself to the city, ask the way to my father’s palace, generous king Alcinous” (6.324-328). Odysseus' lie goes unnoticed, and without repercussion or further discussion.
Alot of things Odysseus and other characters do throughout the book that seem illogical and unreasonable to modern readers happen without consequences. While Athena loves Odysseus, Poseidon hates him, and the rest of the gods seem neutral, so why does Odysseus get away with saying and doing things without repercussions?
Great question. My only response is that humans don't always know the answers to things and aren't always punished for wrongdoing. Sometimes they are aware, and sometimes they are caught, but nothing is certain.
DeleteBook 10 is my favorite book so far. Circe is someone that we have studied in the past when reading different versions of "The Odyssey", I like how her powers are not as abstract as Poseidon's or Aelous's. While reading Book 10, I pictured Circe and the crew members of the ship as dumb because they don't take the time to think through their decisions and are often rash.
ReplyDeleteCirce swore an oath that she would never hurt or plot harm against Eurylochus. "Mount your bed? Not for all the world. Not until you consent to swear, goddess, a binding oath you'll never plot some new intrigue to harm me! Straightaway she began to swear the oath that I required -- never, she's never do me harm--" (10.380-385). She swore this oath "straightaway" which proves that she did not think about the decision of swearing an oath. Circe does not know if the crew is about to attack her because if they were, she would not be able to defend herself because she just swore an oath to never harm them.
The crew is dumb as well because right after they were turned back into mortal human beings from pigs, they went straight back up to her palace to feast. When they were turned back into men, they were different. "they turned men again: younger than ever, taller by far, more handsome to the eye, and yes, they knew me at once and each man grasped my hands" (10.436-438). Although the crew may look better "to the eye" after their change, their brain and reasoning are still the same or even regressed, proved by the fact that they went into the palace, of the goddess that turned them into pigs originally, to feast, which is how they were turned to pigs in the first place. They also don't listen to one of their own crewmembers, Eurylochus, who he listened to his conscious and did not get turned into a pig.
Book 7 and 8 are important because another face of Odysseus appears. Before book 7 and 8, Odysseus was portrayed as a brave, humble, polite, manly, heroic person that was helped by Athena a lot or loved by every people and god except Poseidon because I thought he deserves it; however, in book 7 and 8, he begins to appear prideful, despicable and, in a few occasions, evil. In book 9 he was totally being a rude villain. For example, Odysseus didn’t reveal his identity immediately on purpose because he was playing with the Phaeacians, or he was so confident of his ability of playing sports and showing off to the Phaeacians and this makes a feeling that Athena and the other gods are helping him too much, and they are misunderstanding him. The role of book 7 and 8 in the epic were the transition point where Odysseus turned into another personality and character.
ReplyDeleteWe didn’t discuss book 7 and 8 that much because book 9 was more important and famous. A question still wasn’t clearly answered during the discussion was that why does Athena help Odysseus when it’s unnecessary. She should help him to a minimum. For instance Athena made Odysseus look good, but that’s unnecessary because he didn’t need to look good for just sending him back to his own country. An idea learned by class discussion is that Demodocus is Homer, which was an amazing and surprising fact. This made a strong understanding of Demodocus because all of the songs he sang were the over all of the story in which nobody should’ve known; he is standing out because he is different from any other character in the epic.
The most important lecture in class was that Odysseus is representing “every man” so this fact confirmed the top ten list of contradiction and is a proof that he is turning into another person and was a totally different person from what he was in the previous books. It is also found that Odysseus in book 9 was a totally different person from what he was in the previous books.
You are totally right about this turning point, Misaki. Thanks for pointing it out.
DeleteBook 11 is important because this is when Odysseus deals with his past. He is forced to see people he killed, people who fought in the trojan war, and old family members. He sees the harsh reality of death and gets advice from those he meets. I think the most important person he sees in the underworld is probably his mom. They discuss what is going on in Ithaca and he learns about his wife, Telemachus and his father. But when he asks how she died she explained it was because of him. She died of grief. This clearly caused Oedipus a lot pain because he feels responsible for his mothers' death. It also one of Odysseus's most vulnerable moments when he reaches for her three times but can't touch her.
ReplyDeleteWhen we discussed the book in class, we were focusing more on the plot. I wished we talked more about why he saw the people he did, what impact they had on him, and the importance of each person he saw or met. We didn't get to share our discussion questions or top ten list either, so I feel we didn't do much for the discussion. I answered some questions during the discussion.
Sorry it wasn't as deep or as thorough as it could have been, Madison. I agree that we should have discussed WHY more than WHAT.
DeleteIn chapter 12 when we got to visit the Kingdom of the Dead I enjoyed learning about all the different ghosts and heroic deaths that have occurred. I thought it was insightful into Odysseus’s character that we got to meet his mother Anticleia, and how not only his wife and son are sad about him gone, but also his mother who died of grief because of it. In our discussion in class we mainly highlighted why chapter 12 is so significant to Odysseus’s journey altogether because he must go back to his past in order to go forward in the future. Homer’s main idea he wants to get across in this chapter is how Odysseus must face death because it is part of life. This chapter left me with many different questions on how many of these ghosts came to be and I wanted to find out more detail about their deaths and why there are so many sections for different ghosts in the underworld. The chapter mainly just touched the specific ghosts of women, warriors, and kings or powerful Greek gods.
ReplyDeleteElphenor’s death also opened up the eyes of Odysseus and his mortal sailors on how significant proper burial rituals are to the dead when they pass away into the underworld because of what section they are placed and how they are treated. This chapter also highlights the idea of fate and what Odysseus death will be like. He dies comfortable at home after years of wear and tear on his body and he dies of old age. This chapter overall foreshadows the fate of Odysseus’s journey and what he is to make of himself.
Dakota and I made a very good choice to pick book ten. If we were doing a play for act ten, I would want to be Circe because she isn’t as powerful as a god, but she sure does have advantages over the mortals. I believe Circe manipulated the crew members very easily because Odysseus's crew members are not the smartest tools in the shed.
ReplyDeleteAfter the men were released from their piggish state, they went right back to Circe, the goddess that turned them into pigs in the first place, to feast with her. Also, they stayed a year on Aeaea because they were too dumb to recognize that Circe had made Odysseus fall in love with her. After a year, Odysseus asks Circe for directions back to Ithaca, and she says that he has to go through the underworld and he says he will do it. That’s like using Dixie highway to get to Silicon Valley: it doesn’t work. And the funniest thing is that his whole crew was completely okay with taking directions from ancient mapquest. Not one of the crew members thinks its a bad idea to detour through the underworld, where only dead people go.
Good points--and funny, too. Well done, Jake. I agree with you: why do his men question him at other points in the story but not when they are sailing towards Hades??
DeleteIn our class, we never got to fully discuss Book 11: Kingdom of the Dead. Our discussion day landed on the same day as a pop reading quiz. I was bummed that we never got to go in depth to this book because I think it is the most important book in The Odyssey. This book acts as a mini history lesson in the middle of the poem. I think of it as a pit stop that doesn’t give you any rest. It’s a break in the poem, but this break is full of important details. In this book, Odysseus travels to the underworld and meets many different women, soldiers, and kings who were important figures in the past. Among those he meets, his mother and Tiresias are the two most important. His mother tells him of Ithaca and how Penelope and Telemachus are suffering without him, but remain faithful and full of hope that he will soon return home. Tiresias tells him of his future and what he must do in order to die peacefully. Homer does this to show that you must go into the past in order to succeed in the future. I think he also does this to show that people from the past may have died, but the events, the memories, and the actions of the past are never dead. A prime example of this is when Odysseus is talking to Agamemnon. Agamemnon curses all women after he curses his wife for cheating on him. He may have died but he will be tormented forever because the memories haven’t died.
ReplyDeleteWe never got to our discussion. One of our questions was “Why do most of the spirits ask Odysseus about their children? Do you think this is a common theme in the book?” I think that the reason that they do is because in Grecian culture, children are the pride of their parents and carry on their legacy. The suitors want to kill Telemachus because (as of then) he was the only one who could carry on his father’s blood and title. I learned a lot about Greek mythology from this book. I also learned that in Greek mythology, no one story just stops at the end result. All of them are connected together and intertwine. You might not understand one myth if you haven’t heard previous myths.
You make me realize that in The Odyssey, the dead are never really gone...but neither are the living. The dead are still obsessed with what happened during their lifetime. The two worlds aren't that far apart.
DeleteIn our class today, we discussed my book, book 13. My favorite part of this book is that we as readers finally gain the satisfaction that Odysseus has reached Ithaca. He made it. I also like that we have an Odysseus, Athena interaction and can see a hint of Athena’s love towards Odysseus. We see this when Odysseus accuses Athena of lying when he has just made up his whole story himself, and Athena takes no repercussions. My least favorite part of this book is how the generous King Alcinous people in the boat were killed. King Alcinous was very nice and welcoming towards Odysseus and it was hard to see him get punished for that. I also did not like how Odysseus never takes responsibility for any of his actions. For example when he landed on the Land of Ithaca the first thing he says when he wakes up is, “why have the phaeacians forsaken me?”; I wanted to jump into the book and slap him in the face for saying that after all they have done for him. I did not learn much from our discussion since we had little discussion time, and I knew almost the entire book already.
ReplyDeleteThe role of this book in the epic is to serve as a reminder that in life our lives become intertwined with other people’s story but it is our story is the one that we will tell. Another role of this book is to serve as a transition in the book from talking about the past to living in the present. One connection I have made is that Odysseus seems to be in denial that he has a son. Not once on his way home to Ithaca or on Ithaca, did it say that Odysseus was thinking of Telemachus. Another approach you could take is that Odysseus is bottling up all of his emotions about Telemachus. Odysseus knows that if he thinks of how he abandoned his son, he might crack. I played the instigator in the conversation; in essence, I was the conversation. I was both the supplier and the demander. I gave the questions and after a confirmation from Mrs. Gahan answered the question. I played this role because that is just who I am as a person, a leader.
As a group, Emily and I took a close look at Book 13: Ithaca at Last (!). Although I was happy to see Odysseus make it home to the land he loves and cherishes, I was not satisfied with the various actions before and after he arrived. First, Odysseus slept on the ship ride home to Ithaca, his homeland that he hasn’t seen in 20 years! It doesn’t make sense to me why he would sleep at a time like that. He spent all day sobbing on the rocks of Ogygia yet he couldn’t stay awake for his homecoming! Also, it bothered me that he couldn’t immediately return to his home, see his son, and hug his wife (finally). I think that when I started to read this book I thought to myself, “Finally, it’s over. His journey is done.” There is a whole other side to Odysseus’ journey that we have only started reading about. There were so many times when I looked up from my book just wanting there to be a cliché chick-flick ending to the novel where Odysseus can just run home to Penelope and Telemachus (even though he isn’t home at the moment). Instead, Odysseus doesn’t recognize the land, he must journey to a different place before going home, and he must devise a plan to rid his house of suitors. And yet, none of those decisions were Odysseus’. I wish Odysseus would make his own decisions. Not exactly the ending I wanted or expected.
ReplyDeleteOne last event in Book 13 that bothered me was Poseidon destroying the Phaeacians ship. The Phaeacians treated Odysseus with respect, kindness, and generosity and yet Poseidon could not leave them alone. It was too late for Poseidon to ruin Odysseus because he had already reached land, so he had to affect other people that he had interacted with. It made me ask myself two things: (1) Poseidon do you ever take a day off? And (2) does everyone that Odysseus interacts with become affected by his presence? It was hard to read that the Phaeacian’s ship was destroyed.
I agree--the Phaeacians have been more than generous, so they are the last people to deserve this fate. But is it Odysseus's fault? Alcinous acknowledged that it was fated this would happen at some point...is Odysseus to blame--or is he just a TERRIBLE bad luck charm?
DeleteBook 11, The Kingdom of the Dead, is definitely an important book because Odysseus deals with two big things: the past and death. In the Underworld, Odysseus meets with people from his past, including soldiers he fought with in the Trojan War and his mother, and he learns and gets advice from them. For example, Agamemnon warns Odysseus to be wary of women. Will he take this into account in his future homecoming? We talked before about how Odysseus represents humanity. This book shows how all humans have to learn from their past to move forward into the future. Odysseus also deals with death in this book, specifically those of his mother, Elpenor, and Agamemnon. Odysseus has to cope with these losses, just like all of humanity has to learn to handle death as a part of life.
ReplyDeleteWe didn’t really get to discuss this book in class, but I would’ve liked to talk about the relationship between life and death. When Odysseus meets with the dead, a lot of connections come up with their lives. Ajax is still bitter about the feud between him and Odysseus when Ajax was alive. Agamemnon is still mad at the whole female gender because of what his wife did to him when they were living. Odysseus sees people being punished in death for what they did in life. Homer describes the shades looking like they did when they died. Maybe this was a creative decision, or maybe it’s how he actually thought people looked in the afterlife, but maybe he meant it as a link between the life of the person and their death.
This book deals with the past and death and how the living have to deal with those things. Even after someone has died, his life legacy or reputation is still remembered and lives on.
Contrary to what other students believe, Book 14 is a very significant book. This book is where Odysseus changes back into the version of himself who lives in Ithaca. It is when the readers learn to love him again. In the previous 13 chapters, Odysseus has made some questionable decisions and actions like his numerous affairs, his shipmates dying on his watch, and his reckless desire for fame and recognition . However, in Book 14 we begin to see him through Eumaeus' eyes. The change to third person helps the readers see Odysseus as a great, loving ruler. Odysseus needs this support because for the rest of the book Odysseus will be facing three important events: reuniting with Telemachus, reuniting with Penelope, and killing all of the suitors. Book 14 is not just a pointless story about a loyal swineherd but rather a transitional chapter that puts the readers or audience on Odysseus' side.
ReplyDeleteOne major question that I had while reading was why hasn't Odysseus told Eumaeus who he is? If his swineherd is so loyal and trustworthy, why does Odysseus hide who he really is? This question was answered during our discussion. As our discussion went deeper, I noticed that Odysseus subtly was trying to tell Eumaeus. As he is weaving his tale of who he is, he drops little hints like how he is unlucky and how he fought in the Trojan War too. Towards the end of our discussion, another question was brought up. Does Eumaeus catch on to these hints? Or, is he clueless to who Odysseus really is? I want to believe that Eumaeus knows; however, only the continuance of our reading will tell.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading Book 14, and it was one of my favorite books so far. While it seems like nothing really happens, it is a major element to the rest of "The Odyssey." While Book 14 could be viewed as a filler, with deeper reading it can be seen as a crucial chapter because it enlightens the readers by allowing them to see Odysseus in a good light.
Book Thirteen of Odysseus should have been a joyous moment for Odysseus because he finally returned to Ithaca, but instead his arrival had no citizens waiting to meet him and it caused him to be a tad cranky. Odysseus woke up on Ithaca’s beaches all alone and thought he was in another foreign place. Because of this, Odysseus portrayed some of his more humanly qualities. He was extremely unthankful of the Phaecians and accused them of stealing his gifts and dumping him on a random island. Later on in Book Thirteen Odysseus lies to Athena and finally remembers that he has a son. Because Odysseus is considered “everyman”, book thirteen shows how “everyman” can have some bad moments. We did talk about Odysseus bad moments during class, but I wish we could have gone more in depth into it. Book thirteen also touches on the rest of Phaecians story, but it ends before the readers can find out what Poseidon will do to them. This abrupt ending reminds the readers that Odysseus is about Odysseus and his story. I think Book thirteen is like a mirror; it shows the readers what humans are really like and displays the ups and downs and good qualities and bad qualities “everyman” has. For example, book thirteen displays the Phaecians generosity, but also Odysseus’ lack of thankfulness and how his cleverness can get him into trouble when he lies to Athena.
ReplyDeleteBook thirteen also touches on the rest of Phaecians story, but it ends before the readers can find out what Poseidon will do to them. This abrupt ending reminds the readers that Odysseus is about Odysseus and his story. The gods also show off their strength with the Phaecians. Zeus toys with them for entertainment. Although book thirteen is a great depiction of humanity, it also shows how the gods still have control over the humans.
I liked book 13 because of the reader got to see the “darker side” of Odysseus. I like seeing the human side to a hero, which lets the reader connect with the hero yet makes the reader view him as less of a hero. Odysseus does what most men would have done when dropped off on an unfamiliar island while sleeping; he cursed the Phaeacians that brought him there. Odysseus did not act out of line by cursing them because even though he did fall asleep, it is common courtesy to wake the man up and not leave him alone with a pile of his treasure on a deserted beach. Odysseus also did not act out of line when he went to check his treasure to make sure none was taken, even though this was slightly selfish considering they gave it to him, but they left him there so what was there to stop them from robbing Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing I learned in the class discussion was about the ellipses on page 292. I did not know that it was so open ended, and that the reader could not infer that Poseidon put a mountain around their port. It also interested me of why Homer put the ellipses in, because the story is about Odysseus not about the Phaeacians. I thought this was interesting how once the focused shifted from the Phaeacians helping Odysseus, to just the Phaecians that homer jumped back to Odysseus so suddenly. The ellipses also confused me because Homer had already gone into so much detail of the Phaeacians journey that is was confusing to drop the story after several pages and at such a critical point in the narrative. Why did homer right the small story about the Phaeacians if he was not going to finish it?
I felt that our questions did not really apply to our class discussion. It seemed as if we started by asking one question, but then never mentioned the other nine again. I also felt as if Mrs. Gahan led most of the discussion and drove the questions and topics.
Book Sixteen, "Father and Son," is the most important book in this whole epic. Why? Because this is when Odysseus MEETS his son for the first time! How is he going to introduce himself to his son Telemachus and yet convince him that he IS his father? This same question applies to Homer and his readers. How will Homer introduce this situation to the audience and yet give it value? Homer uses irony in this book to convey his message. Not everything operates as expected. This irony is the most significant and my favorite part of the book.
ReplyDeleteEvery reader expects that when the chapter starts, Telemachus would see his father for the first time, astounded by what he looked like, become skeptical, but then finally believes it’s him. Instead, Homer uses his first and most important irony of this book and that is when Telemachus arrives to Ithaca. He does NOT see his father, he greets and acknowledges Eumaeus. “So the loyal swineherd hugged the beaming prince, he clung for dear life, covering him with kisses, yes, like one escaped from death” (16.23-25). Eumaeus has proven to be a father figure to Telemachus for twenty years; therefore, it is natural that when Telemachus comes to Ithaca, he would go to Eumaeus. But I wonder, what went through Odysseus’ head at this very moment? Did he feel angry or calm? It is interesting how Homer includes in many other scenarios the two sides of Odysseus, and yet he did not include in this chapter. Why is that? Another irony that Homer used was that on page 344, Odysseus declared himself as the father of Telemachus. End of discussion. But a few pages earlier, Telemachus offers Odysseus a seat and provides him clothes and food. Telemachus was PLAYING the father role. That was one of my questions. Is there significance in this irony? The roles are reversed? Perhaps, but that is why this book is an important piece to this puzzle. It is because Homer uses irony.
I liked the class discussion very much. I connected a lot with what Mrs. Gahan said. She talked a lot about irony and events not going according to plan. I agree with that. This book covers many aspects not only in Odysseus’ journey but in our lives as well. Not many things go as we want it to. Another concept I learnt from the class discussion in when Odysseus declares himself Telemachus’ father. That was powerful. The quote, “No other Odysseus will ever return to you” (16.232), is significant. No other person can be our mother or our father. That is my favorite line in this epic.
Book 16 (Father and Son) is the book where for the first time Odysseus and Telemachus meet. During all the others books I thought that Odysseus and Telemachus were really similar is a lot of things, but boot 16 made it clear that Father and Son are really different. This fact was first noticed for me when the following passage happened: "[Telemachus] But our new guest, since he's arrived at your house, I'll give him a shirt and cloak to wear, good clothing, give him a two-edged sword and sandals for his feat and send him of, wherever his heart desires" (Book 16.87-90). Telemachus wanted to give presents away, while in the other hand his father is always asking for more, more gifts, more presents, he always want more. Most of their similarities are from "what they are" and their differences are from "how they act" for example both of them questions people for who they are. Like for example when Odysseus turns himself to his former self, Telemachus took a long time to believe that it was his father, because he needed to make a lot of questions. And they are different for example, in terms of killing the suitors, Odysseus is much more ready to do this than Telemachus. The biggest difference that I saw was that Odysseus always need someone to press him in do things, most of the time this "person" is the God Athena, while Telemachus do not need that much help.
ReplyDeleteGreat points, Alice and Farah!
DeleteIn Book 16, Father and Son, Telemachus and Odysseus meet for the first time. This long awaited reunion is carefully constructed my Odysseus to ensure that Telemachus can accept him back into his life. I think that this chapter is one of the most important in the book because getting Telemachus on his side is crucial for Odysseus to reclaim his home.
ReplyDeleteAll of his life, Telemachus was compared to Odysseus, a man he had never met. These are very big shoes to fill, and gave Telemachus extraordinarily high expectations for his father. His whole life, he had waited to meet the man who gave him life, and when he finally did, his expectations were met. I'm happy that Telemachus felt like his father was just as good as he thought he would be after all those years.
During class, we actually covered many of the questions that Bailey and I had come up with for this chapter. We discussed the process of reintroducing people to each other using the common day example of people who had gone missing. We talked about how you need to be careful with how you reunite them after so long away from one another. This helped us understand Odysseus’s reasoning with the timing of his reveal, which was a big question we had.
In Book 14, we meet Eumaeus, and we read from his perspective. Homer is trying to get us to look at things from his point of view: a loyal subject to the king, whom he loves and respects. Homer is telling us that we need to start liking Odysseus because we need to on his side for the rest of the book where the reunion of Odysseus and his family and the killing of the suitors happens. We also see the cunning and narrating side of Odysseus; in The Loyal Swineherd, Odysseus tells Eumaeus a story that has a mixture of false and true events. The story serves as a hint to Eumaeus saying that he, dressed as a beggar, is really King Odysseus back home from his long journey.
ReplyDeleteOver all, I really liked reading this book. I didn’t think it was important while I was reading it, but our class found its significance. While I was reading, I found the stories hard to read, long, and distracting from the real story and plot. I thought Eumeaus’ story was interesting and a nice break from all of the fighting, war, and plotting.
Book Twelve is probably the most important passage in The Odyssey. It describes, from Odysseus's perspective, the last piece of his journey back to Ithaca. I created the top ten list and original illustration. My favorite part of the book was the introduction of all the new mythological elements. The addition of the Sirens, Scylla, Charybdis, and the island of the Sun filled the book with excitement and added more magic to The Odyssey.
ReplyDeleteOur class discussion emphasized the simile that I payed little attention to during my reading. “Just as an angler poised on a jutting rock flings his treacherous bait in the offshore swell, whips his long rod-hook sheathed in an oxhorn lure- and whisks up little fish he flips on the beach-break, writhing, gasping out their lives” (12.271-275). Homer compares Scylla to a mortal. This simile shows how brutal she is to the six men she takes, but it also points out the cruelty of men. Even though Scylla is described as a vicious monster, this comparison makes man and beast seem alike in many ways. Other than this quote mentioned in Jeopardy, we didn't discuss book twelve fully during class. I still wonder, why did Zeus have interest in being involved in this conflict? Do he and Helios have a friendship?
This book has many similarities to the other books in The Odyssey. For example, all of the books seem to emphasize how different the human, god, and monster customs are. Just like the Laestygonians, Scylla has no interest in welcoming her visitors or trying to act human at all. Both are cannibals and have no interest in following Greek customs. Helios also felt no need to welcome Odysseus or his crew when they arrived at Thrinacia. To me, it seems like the only people who sacrifice or are extremely charitable are those who fear the gods. Another reoccurring theme is the gods trying to stir up trouble. The gods took sides during the Trojan War, and they seem to enjoy battle. It is clear that Zeus is extremely willing to cause a commotion after Helios's cattle was eaten. After Zeus kills Odysseus's crew, is Athena in any way responsible for the branch above Charybdis?
Book 21 is most certainly important and serves an interesting purpose in the epic as a whole. Much as the mention and recognition of the scar by Eurycleia in Book 19 acts to build the suspense leading to her recognition of Odysseus, Book 21 as a whole serves this purpose as well. The scar must be seen before Odysseus’s true form can be revealed, and the bow must be strung before the suitors can be slaughtered. Thus, Book 21 is but a precursor to the moment of awe waiting to follow. One of the interesting things in this book in relation to the others is the sudden change in the suitors’ moods, most notably that of Antinous. After Odysseus defeated Irus with a swift punch to the neck, he immediately gained respect among the suitors and a complementary sizzling goat sausage. However, with just a slight action that was not in the suitors’ favour, Odysseus “innocently” asking to string his bow, the mind-set of the suitors changed to something nasty and pugnacious. They immediately began hurling insults, such as “You too, I promise you no end of trouble if you should string that bow. You’ll meet no kindness in our part of the world - we’ll sail you off in a black ship to Echetus, the mainland king who wrecks all men alive. Nothing can save you from his royal grip!” (Antinous 21.342-347) and “The speedy dogs you reared will eat your corpse -” (Unknown Suitor 21.406). The role of this book, in addition to building suspense before the slaughter, is to show the final change in suitors’ inconstant minds in their treatment of Odysseus before they die.
ReplyDeleteHad this book been discussed in class, another interesting topic for conversation would have been Penelope’s acting versus her ignorance. Many times, during the reading of Penelope’s reactions and remarks, it was difficult to discern between genuine and staged responses. Her remark, “Our friend here is a strapping, well-built man and claims to be the son of a noble father. Come, hand him the bow now…if he strings the bow and Apollo grants him glory…I’ll give him a good sharp lance to fight off men and dogs, give him a two-edged sword and sandals for his feet…” (21.375-380), showed hints of her knowledge peeking through her supposed ignorance. Her mention of the lance and two-edged sword is a premonition of the imminent slaughter, and the adjectives “strapping” and “well-built” express her thoughts towards her noble husband. Yet at the same time, she shows hints – even when the suitors are not present – of her lack of knowledge towards Odysseus’s whereabouts. She shows this as she says, “climbing up to the lofty chamber with her women, she fell weeping to Odysseus, her beloved husband, till watchful Athena sealed her eyes with welcome sleep” (21.397-399). She has wept for Odysseus in the same manner, privately so as not to influence the suitors, for twenty years, indicating the possibility that she does not know of Odysseus’s presence within the palace and that her weeping is in fact genuine and not a ploy to gain the suitors’ attention and sympathy. These seemingly contradictory reactions to Odysseus’s presence certainly beg the question “Does she know?” When reading Book 21, the book’s role in suspense, the changes in the suitor’s mind-sets, and the question of Penelope’s knowledge are the main points in this portion of "The Odyssey" that help to set it apart from the others, as they serve as a major turning point in several of the characters very near to the end of the story.
In Book 21, Odysseus finished plotting the suitors' murder with Telemachus, testing his servants' loyalty, and moving the armor to another storeroom. When Penelope decides to chose her husband by their ability to string Odysseus's bow and shoot it through 12 axes, all the suitors fail, but Odysseus succeeds. Although this book isn't as important as some of the other books, this allows for there to be smooth transition into Book 22, where he begins the slaughter of the suitors. I like Homer's choice of beginning the murders at such a dramatic point. The moment where Odysseus shoots the arrow through the axes is already climatic. Odysseus had just revealed that he, a mere beggar at the time, could do something none of the suitors could do. He also revealed that he was Odysseus, and that left all the suitors in a state of shock. That was the perfect time to begin his killing spree. I like that it's one dramatic moment after another and not a spontaneous killing.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, we did not get the chance to discuss the book during class. If we had the chance to, I would have liked to talk about both Telemachus's attempt to enter the competition and Odysseus's discussion with the swineherd and the cowherd. I wasn't surprised that Telemachus wanted to enter the competition or that he couldn't string the bow. He entered because he may have wanted to either arouse the men's interest in competing by saying he'd try as well or make it known to the suitors that he is better than all them. By failing to string the bone alone, he showed us that even he can't match his father. Then there's the scene where Odysseus reveals his true identity to the two servants, and promises them treatment equal to that of his song, houses, and wives. One of the questions I had was that should Odysseus be rewarding them with materialistic objects? I would have liked to have seen how everyone else would have answered it.
Two great questions, and I plan to pose them both tomorrow in class.
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ReplyDeleteIn Book 21, I really enjoyed the synthesis of the plan. Finally, their well thought out slaughter has begun. When the plan begins, Zeus sent down a lightning bolt which was my favorite part in this book. Throughout the story, Zeus has sent down confirmations through the lighting bolt and this indicated that it was time. Very cool! I also found the exchange of words between Telemachus and Penelope to be very interesting. To me, this is when Telemachus becomes a man, with the potential of being a king. He doesn’t just ask her to leave, he demands that she goes to her chambers.
ReplyDeleteCrystal and I did not get to discuss are book in class. If we did, I would have like to discuss why Athena tempted the suitors and even Telemachus to make insults. I felt like this was a very significant point in the book however, I did not fully understand it. Also, I would have liked to discuss the order of when the suitors shoot. Wouldn’t Antinous want to go first? Why isn’t he mentioned as a failure? The one thing that stood out to me in this book and all the others was the sense of competition. Although many of the suitors knew that the task was nearly impossible, it was made a huge competition with a lot of insults. Also, the competitive spirits of Telemachus led him to trying to string the bow.
Cole, thanks for your thoughtful post. The fact that Telemachus wants to join in the bow and arrow competition emphasizes the fact that it's a competition--otherwise, why would he step up to the plate? He doesn't want to "win" his mother, so is he getting caught up in the contest? Or does he want to prove to himself (and perhaps Odysseus) that he can do it?
DeleteGood thoughts.
Book 18 is one of the most important chapters in the book, since it shows the beginning of when Odysseus starts to get back at all of those who have taken advantage of his home's hospitality. It is interesting how the suitors are so rowdy and how they take so much from Odysseus's home. They become furious when Odysseus (acting as a beggar) talks about the possibility of Odysseus actually being alive. This is where Odysseus really learns how evil not only the suitors are, but also some of his servants as well.
ReplyDeleteAlthough there hasn't been a discussion in depth about book 18 in class, there are some topics that I would have liked to cover. I would have liked to discuss what is going to happen to the women servants who are not loyal. Will Odysseus kill them along with the suitors, or will he let Penelope decide their fate, or possibly something else? Another question that I have is why Odysseus chose the disguise of a beggar, since he could have chosen a different disguise where he could see the evil ways of the suitors without having that evil directed at him most of the time. Odysseus also seems very bold as a beggar, and he seems more powerful than many of the suitors, which makes the disguise less effective. Another thing I was curious about was how Homer narrated this book. I felt as if there was something significant about how he did this book but I couldn't pinpoint what exactly.
I like your questions, Jack...what exactly do you mean by Homer's narration, though? What intrigues you?
DeleteBook 19 shows the importance of trickery and cunningness. Penelope is known to be sly but in this book she shows while also revealing to the beggar (Odysseus) how she plotted her weaving scheme to put off the suitors. Penelope's dream seems to be questionable. Does she really know who she is talking to and is this actually a dream? As Odysseus continuously is making up countless cunning stories this is an example of Penelope's turn. "The geese were your suitors- I was once the eagle but now I am your husband, back again at last" (19.618-619). Penelope here is almost foreshadowing the future. She is predicting the death of the suitors. By sharing her "dream" as if she knows who the beggar is, she is almost asking for him to truly come home to her which includes killing the suitors.
ReplyDeleteThere is also the question is Penelope testing the beggar to see how true he is. She tells a bold lie to Odysseus that she knows is not true, ""My son.. urged me not to marry and leave my husband's home" (19.598). By stating what she knows to be a lie it is only fair to assume that she is testing Odysseus. He passed her previous testing of being able to identify Odysseus's clothes at Troy. In this more challenging test she is looking to see if he can identify her dream. Penelope continues to be one of the more clever character in this novel and her ability to not burst out and Odysseus's homecoming shows how their shrewd personalities are ment to be together.
Book 19 really captures the relationship between Odysseus and Penelope because it was the first time Penelope and Odysseus truly interacted. Although Odysseus disguised himself as a beggar named Aethon, his chemistry with Penelope remained. Book 19 made me realize how much Penelope truly loves Odysseus. Throughout their entire conversation, Penelope describes how much she misses Odysseus and hates the day that he shipped sail for Troy. This proves how loyal Penelope is to Odysseus even after 20 years. Their interaction made me wonder if Penelope knew that Aethon was Odysseus. Although she never notices the revealing scar, Penelope does ask Aethon questions that only Odysseus could answer. Throughout reading this book, I thought that when Penelope was crying, she was also realizing that Odysseus was in front of her. Because of this, she kept proving her loyalty to Odysseus. Penelope never asks if Aethon is Odysseus because she doesn’t want to make the first move, for the fear that it might not be him. For Penelope, Aethon is a glimpse of hope that Odysseus will come back even though she denies his return.
ReplyDeleteWhen we discussed book 19 in our class, we went into great detail on the story of Odysseus’s scar and his revealing scene. Although this was a crucial part of book 19 because it was the second time Odysseus revealed himself, other parts revealed the true nature of characters. Telemachus proved how much he grew up and was acknowledged by his own father as finally maturing. Another scene that was important was the when the eagle reappeared from book 15. The purpose of the eagle was a little confusing to me because I didn’t know if it symbolized the same thing that it did in book 15. I had hoped we would have have discussed our top ten ironic situations with the class because many characters in this book contradict themselves.
Let's talk about the irony tomorrow, please!!
DeleteWhat I liked most about Book 16 was that Telemachus and Odysseus finally were able to meet. I also liked how they started to finally plan the suitors death. Another thing that I liked was when Penelope finally stood up to the suitors: "And this man whose house you waste, scot-free, whose wife you court, whose son you mean to kill-you make my life an agony! Stop, I tell you, stop all this, and make the rest stop too" (352). I was really proud of Penelope here and thought that she finally gained her voice. I also liked that Telemachus matured a lot in this chapter. He began to get the courage he needed for when he fights the suitors, and he begins to talk like he runs things around Ithaca and that he is no longer standing for the foolish ways of the suitors
ReplyDeleteWe did not discuss Book 16 during class, but in our Top Ten List we talked about the different emotions felt in Book 16. There was sadness, confidence, depression, hostility, depression, joy, excitement, skepticism, greed, doubt, audacity, hostility. Some questions I still have after reading Book 16 are: Why did Penelope finally stand up to the suitors? What gave her the inspiration to do this? Why is Odysseus so trusting in the gods to help him and Telemachus out in their fight against the suitors?
I thought that Book 16 was great because we finally get to see the reunion of the father and the son. We not only get to see the other side of Penelope, but also the other side of the suitors. Book 16 is filled with a lot of emotions and changes and that's what makes it so good.
For our class, Thuy-Vy and I chose to cover book 11: The Kingdom of the Dead. In this book, Odysseus and the rest of his crew travel down to the underworld, also known as Hades or Erebus, in effort to talk to seer Tiresias and hear Odysseus’s prophecy. During his travels in the underworld, Odysseus and his men meet and see many princesses, princes, family, and legendary warriors who has passed along. What I liked most about this specific book was the theme of legacy it exhibited throughout the book. I believe that this book was important because it shows not only Odysseus, but also the audience the importance of legacy and your actions that you leave behind in life, for it follows and stays with you for eternity even after you have died. I did not notice this until I was going over my annotations for the book the day we were supposed to present and I came across this line: “But you, Achilles, there’s not a man in the world more blest than you... Time was, when you were alive, we Argives honored you as a god, and now down here, I see, you lord it over the dead in all your power” (11.265.547-552). Unfortunately, Thuy-Vy and I did not have the chance to discuss our book, but if we had, I would have brought this quote up with the topic of legacy.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Gahan reiterates the fact that the Odyssey epic illustrates the trials and journey of life and that everyone can relate to Odysseus in some way, and I believe that this book does this though the theme of legacy and life after death. We as humans, whether we like to admit it or not, always take into consideration our reputations and “fingerprints” we will leave behind to society and those who will outlive us after our passing to the other side. What we leave behind is the good (and bad) that we were remembered for. I believe Homer places Odysseus in the underworld and tells each person he meets their little anecdote, or mini-legacy for this very reason. I also believe Homer did this to point out the downside of leaving behind a legacy: you are only known for either your best or worst aspect or action you have done while living. Agamemnon, for example, was a great war hero from Troy, but he is now remembered and alluded to time after time throughout the Odyssey as a warrior who was brought down by a homecoming gone wrong. Our legacy after death that we leave behind can be determined by ourselves, but most of the time it is not the case. Our legacy is mostly determined by the memories we impact on the people who are left after we have been subtracted from the equation of life. Whether these memories are good or bad, it is up to them to decipher it, for we cannot change our actions after deeds have already been done.
For me, Book 21 was one of the more interesting books in the poem. I liked how in this book Odysseus's whole plan started to come together; he included Telemachus, Eumaeus, Philoetius, and Eurycleia, with each working in their own important ways. I believe this book strongly connects with several of the other major books including: Book 14, when Odysseus met Eumaeus; Book 20, when Odysseus met Philoetius; and Book 19, when Odysseus met Eurycleia. Odysseus made connections with his allies in these books that may have saved his life. If Odysseus had not revealed himself to Eumaeus and Philoetius just right, they may not have joined his team. Similarly, if he did not explain the importance of his secrecy to Eurycleia, then she may have told Penelope, which would have ruined his plan.
ReplyDeleteAlthough we did not have an in-class discussion regarding Book 21, I feel as though Kyle (my partner) and I grasped the main concepts of the book. We discussed the possibility that Penelope knew Odysseus had returned, and I believe that she did know. The combination of a challenge only Odysseus can complete and a shrewdly placed epithet by Homer that called Penelope "seasoned" led me to believe that Penelope had caught on to Odysseus's plan before he meant for her to find out. Even though Penelope knew about his plan to kill the suitors before he managed to, she stayed quiet about the matter so Odysseus could continue with his plan freely, without feeling like he had to explain it all to her.
I really enjoyed book 22. There was a lot of death in this book though, which kind of put a damper on things. I found it to be a very good book, but it has some repetition about Odysseus's story. I have already read about his journey home and at the end of this book it talks about his journey home again and that was kind of useless. During our discussion, I was a contributor to the discussion, but mainly I jotted down a lot of notes that we took so if anyone needs help learning from this book, I can help them. I thought it was very brutal the way that Melanthius died. He was tortured and then dismembered, which basically meant that he was forgotten. James and I did a project on Book 22. We did this poster board that had ten individual swords with each death typed on each one. We also typed up ten questions about this book.
ReplyDeleteI thought this discussion allowed me to get a better grasp on the book as a whole. It was very intriguing to know how it all came together.
I also thought it was very interesting with how Athena was involved. She had this whole speech on how she was telling Odysseus not to be a coward and for him to go home and fight for his home against the suitors. She was tired of him standing back and watching everything that was his virtually get taken away from him.
ReplyDeleteFor our class Pamela and I chose book 19. I enjoyed book 19 because I got a better understanding of Penelope’s mourning and feelings toward Odysseus. For her to remember what her husband wore 20 years ago as he left from Troy just goes to show how attentive to detail she is, which is why I am still asking myself how she didn’t know Aethon was Odysseus when he described his appearance perfectly. Or did she? And if so, is that why she set up the task for the suitors, knowing only Odysseus could complete it?
ReplyDeleteFrom our class discussion I learned a lot about the way people interpret Homer’s writing style, specifically Auerbach’s perspective after viewing his article we received in class. I think the role of this epic is huge in the book because it raises a lot of questions and also set me up for the whole second half of the book. It showed me the love Penelope still had and it showed a big step in the relationship between Odysseus and Telemachus as they worked together to remove the weapons. One connection I noticed was the eagle, and I’m wondering if later in the book we’ll understand the significance of it since it is the second time it has appeared. I wish in class we could’ve gone more in depth into contradictions within book 19, which was Pamela and I’s focus for the top ten.
Great post, Lilly. I'd like to look at the contradictions/ironies tomorrow please!
DeleteEvan and I did our work on book 18, which is in my opinion a very important book. Book 18 has several important events that set the stage for what is to come in later books of the epic. For example, we catch a glimpse of Penelope's cunning in this book when she trick's the suitors into giving her priceless gifts of gold and silver and finery. We also see Telemachus assert his dominance over the suitors for the first time in this book. This represents the process of Telemachus growing up, for not to long ago he was a weak boy who had no say over the suitors. After his journey, Telemachus comes back a stronger man with more conviction, and in book 18, this conviction is displayed.
ReplyDeleteI think the most noticeable theme of book 18 is contrast. Contrast is noticeable in more than one way throughout book 18, and is very important to take note of. First are the differences between Irus and Odysseus. Although they are both under the status of beggar, it is clear that Odysseus gives off a superior aura. The description of Odysseus is awe inspiring in spite of the fact that he is a beggar, where as Irus is described as less than stellar. Odysseus may be dressed as a beggar, but he acts like a king. The second example of contrast comes from within the crowd of suitors. Beginning in book 18, there appears to be two sides to the suitors. We see the immature, selfish, rude lot, those facets are easy to spot, but then a more humane, sane side comes through as well. Amphinomous appears to have a level head on his shoulders, and even Antinous gives Odysseus a small token after he defeats Irus. The contrast between the suitors can be hard to spot, but it is definitely present at this point in the epic.
Good point about contrast, Matt.
DeleteFor my book, Alexis and I chose book 19. Book 19 really shows Penelope's insight on Odysseus's journey and how long he has been gone. I really questioned, however, Eurycleia's role in this book. She clearly sees Odysseus's leg scar and yet she only makes one attempt to warn her lady Penelope of his return. Of corse, Odysseus does threaten to "not spare her when he kills the other women in the house" (406). But from all we know about Eurycleia, she is a feisty old woman who would fend for herself. She obviously has had to deal with the suitors in her household for twenty years and maybe she has even had to deal with Penelope's moping about the long-gone Odysseus, so why doesn't she want to end her ordeal. She must trust Odysseus pretty well.
ReplyDeleteAnother point I had about book 19 was, why does Penelope suddenly decide to marry? She has been patiently waiting for twenty years for Odysseus and when he finally gets home, she says "time to get married!". Something in me says that Penelope can feel that her long-gone husband has returned. Why else would she give up so suddenly when her husband was so close? Just like when Eurycleia can tell that the beggar looks strangely like Odysseus, I bet that Penelope can see it too. This is why I also think that she picked a contest that she knew only her husband could win. She knew that Odysseus had returned/ was returning and wanted only him as a husband. This only shows how dedicated Penelope really was to her husband, Odysseus.
Matt and I chose book 18 to discuss and analyze. Although we did not talk about this book in great depth, it does have some significance. Book 18 can be seen as a sort of "warm-up" for the final battle between Odysseus and the group of suitors. It gives the reader a taste of what Odysseus can do by showing his little scuffle with Irus and sets the tone to a more Iliad-like atmosphere. The book also shows that Penelope is not afraid to make an appearance before the suitors. Up until this point, she has not been very visible, and by depicting her in a commanding light, Homer reminds us that she is still very powerful like her husband. It is almost a reassurance that women have just as much power.
ReplyDeleteTo build off of what Matt was saying earlier, I do believe that contrast is very prevalent in book 18, but it is not just with the small things like the contrast between a beggar and a king. There is also contrast between the moods in book 18 as opposed to the rest of the story. Odysseus is treated with respect and fear throughout most of the entire text once people realize who he is. Although no one recognizes him as Odysseus in book 18, he is treated with disrespect even after the man downs Irus with ease. It shows that being a beggar really does decide one's social status; no matter how powerful one becomes, a beggar is still a beggar, and a king is still a king. I found it interesting that Homer chose to emphasize this message and promote a sense of hopelessness for the lower class. After reading this text, I realized that Homer is very down to earth. He does not try to glorify society in a way that is not meant to be, and he certainly shows both its positive and negative values. He sticks to what is realistic, and for that reason, I admire his work.
I think book 22 is by far the most important book the Epic. After finally waiting 440 pages we see Odysseus do what he was supposed to do:kill all the suitors and win back his house. This scene is a culmination of the hard work Odysseus has spent trying to get back to Ithaca and his family. I really enjoyed reading this book probably due to Homer's ability to paint a vivid picture of the death scene in my brain. I still can not shake the image of Melanthuis's death in my mind. I think Homer did an admirable job with this seen. Not only do see a great, gory, and bloody battle but we see relationships forged.
ReplyDeleteIn this book we see the relationship between Telemachus and Odysseus go to the next level. First Odysseus, who has already turned down a mercy plea, be convinced by Telemachus to let the herald and bard's lives be spared. Secondly we see Odysseus give the task of dealing with the disloyal women to Telemachus. The obvious is also that the two put their lives on the line next to each other. I think this was my favorite book and also the one I would deem most integral to the epic.
I think the most important part of book 21 is when the suitors are attempting to string the bow of Odysseus. All of the suitors fail, and they realize how much greater of a man Odysseus is than the suitors. It also shows how small Antinous is, because while the suitors are shooting, Antinous insults his own comrades and friends for not being able to string the bow. While he insults and belittles them, Antinous never attempts to string the bow himself, most likely because he cannot even do so. It is also an important part because when Eurymachus attempts, he notes how much better Odysseus is than himself. This shows that some of the suitors are not as stuck up as I originally thought them to be.
ReplyDeleteI also enjoyed how angry the suitors got when Odysseus tried to string the bow as a beggar. When he asked to try his strength at the bow, all of the suitors went into "hot, indignant rage" (433. 319). This shows how over confident the suitors are when they themselves cannot string the bow. It is also a strong example of arrogance, which is a common theme in the epic. The suitors manage to be the most ignorant as to what's going on, right before Odysseus prepares to kill all of the suitors.
Although this book is very essential to the story of Odysseus, I do not think it is my favorite. My favorite book is the one with Polyphemus. Book 21 is more of a lead into the action in book 22.
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ReplyDeleteAlthough our class didn't have a book discussion on Book 3, I was extremely infatuated with this chapter. I think this chapter introduces a lot of important actions that later become very important later in the epic. For example, this is when we first really, in detail, see the sacrificing of animals to the gods as the bulls were sacrificed to Poseidon. In this chapter, Telemachus begins to become more confident and nonchalant in his speech and actions. This later becomes more important in Book 22, when he is faced to slaughter the suitors alongside his father.
ReplyDeleteIn Book 3, we also see a lot of Athena and in what ways she helps Odysseus which is extremely important throughout the book. We also see how existent Athena is in Odysseus's life. I also think that this is the Book when Homer really comes out of his shell when it comes to gore like descriptions of the rituals. "Dark blood gushed forth, life ebbed from her limbs- they quartered her quickly, cut the thighbones out and all according to custom wrapped them round in fat, a double fold sliced clean and topped with strips of flesh" (3.122.511-514). This was a description that was really eye opening for me and prepared me for the rest of the epic. I think Homer's descriptive writing really began in this Book which is why I find it so important to the Epic.
I think that Book 10 plays a vital role in the epic. This book shows some of the first struggles that Odysseus encounters and shows that not everything is going to come easy on his journey home. Though Odysseus is used to people praising him, missing him, and waiting for him to come home, this is the first time his friends see him in another light. They see his flaws for the first time as a leader and human being in general. Also, this depicts his human assets. Although he is a great leader and magnificent man, he is human and has flaws which makes him all the more relatable.
ReplyDeleteSadly, Anne Schmelzer and I were not given the opportunity to discuss our book in class. I think this book would've been a great discussion on whether or not people still saw him as a great leader, or a weak man. His setbacks in book 10, such as King Aiolos setting their ship off track, was such an unfortunate problem but he did handle it calmly and with class.
My main question after reading this book is if the crew members didn't get greedy and opened the bag what could've happened?
Although we did not have a formal in class discussion of Book 3, book three is of great importance. In book 3, Telemachus learns some very important things on the quest to find his father. He gains confidence and comes away feeling better about his goal of finally meeting his father. In chapter 3 we begin to see the importance that Athena has in Telemachus' quest. Athena inspires confidence in Telemachus when Telemachus is nervous before speaking to King Menelaus she states "some of the words you'll find within yourself, the rest some power will inspire you to say"(108.26-30). The reassurance of Athena makes Telemachus' transformation into a man easier as he gains confidence.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately Jordan and I did not get to discuss the book in class. If we were able to, I would have brought up the relationship between Athena and Telemachus and also Homers style of writing in this book. Homers style becomes extremely descriptive in Book 3 as he talks specifically about animals. We now know that his descriptions and the presence of animals play a vital role in the rest of the novel. Book 3 sparks an important beginning to a classic novel.
Book 21 was one of my favorite books, second to Book 22. I like this book because it is when Odysseus finally reveals himself to the suitors. He does it by showing how inferior the suitors are by stringing the bow. When Odysseus does string the bow, it is a transformation on many levels. He changes from an unknown beggar to Odysseus, king of Ithaca. The stringing also puts him on a higher level than everyone that failed to string the bow. It makes him god-like, and a great power. Book 21 also reiterates the fact that the suitors are bad and how they deserve death for what they have done. "But along came this beggar, drifting out of the blue-strung his bow with ease and shot through all the axes! Gossip will fly. We'll hang our heads in shame" (21.366-368). Eurymachus, along with the other suitors, simply worry about how other people will see them as failures for not stringing a bow. It shows the kind of people they are and the fact that they should stop trying to marry Penelope, who deserves a better husband.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed Book 12 because it was a perfect example of how fate plays out throughout this epic. In the previous book, Circe explicitly warns Odysseus against harming the cattle, and he tries. He tells his men to stay away from them. However, we start to wonder how much of the story of Odysseus is actually controlled by him, and how much of the story is instead controlled by fate and fundamental human flaws.
ReplyDeleteThis book has many parallels to Book 10, in which Odysseus and his men visit Aeolus. Odysseus is clearly respected. He is a great war hero and commander. However, when his men are discontent, they tend to question his decisions. Here is where we get into the fundamental human flaws. Throughout this epic, Homer shows us human flaws through his characterization of Odysseus, who is both good and bad. In Book 12, we see Homer show us the greatest human flaw through Odysseus' men: greed. Just like in Book 10 how Odysseus' men got greedy and decided to open the bag from Aeolus and released the winds, his men in Book 12 got greedy and hungry and decided to slaughter the cattle. Odysseus, of course, is asleep at both of these crucial moments.Homer uses Odysseus sleeping and therefore being unable to stop his men to reiterate the fact that Odysseus himself is not the only person deciding his future, but that his fate depends on other people and forces. Had he been by himself, Odysseus might not have fallen in this predicament, but we cannot control our destinies ourselves. Throughout the epic, we see gods like Athena interfering to change Odysseus' fate. This book is special because we see humans affecting Odysseus' fate, which is an important reminder that no matter how insignificant or weak the force or person doing the action is, every action has a consequence.
I enjoyed book 23 because I thought it was very suspenseful the whole time. I thought it was very interesting that Penelope did not believe Eurykleia when she told her that Odysseus was finally home and did not just jump for joy right away. I think the reason why she did this was because it has been so long, 20 years, since she has seen her husband, so I understand, but if that was me and my wife would of just got home and I had been waiting for that long and still had as much hope as Penelope did I would believe her. I thought it was very interesting how she figured out that it was actually Odysseus was from their secret sign, which was the bed that he built.
ReplyDeleteOverall this book had a huge role in this epic because it was when Penelope found out the Odysseus was back in Ithaca and was alive, by asking him to move the bed which he could not move because that was the bed he built around a tree trunk. I think we could of analyzed this book a little more by discussion his trip to visit his father more and discussing the bed he made more