You, who have just read this sad and tragic episode in my life, can mentally change places with me and ask yourself the crucial question, "What would I have done?"
Respond in a thoughtful, well-developed, well-supported short essay (100-300 words). Remember that your response must clearly state what you believe and why. You must also directly cite at least one quotation from the story and one quotation from the book's Symposium (and yes, include page number citations). Because this is longer than most blog posts, it will be worth 20 points and graded according to the following criteria:
CONTENT (10 points)
10: Clear stance, specific support to back up stance, direct reference (with citation) to story and one essay in the book's Symposium.
9: 3 of the 4 above
8: 2 of the 4 above
7 or lower: no clear stance, no specific reasoning or support, no direct references to text.
STYLE (10 points)
10: Eloquently stated, precise diction (word choice), concise, grammatically correct.
9: Thoughtfully worded but needs a little revision in terms of diction or syntax
8: Could be more thoughtfully or concisely stated
7 or lower: Needed to be significantly revised before posted.
Why is forgiveness so engrained into our beliefs? Perhaps because one feels it is their moral obligation to have mercy upon those asking for it. I disagree. Forgiveness, no matter the atrocity at hand, or the individual’s involvement, is simply a psychological illusion, for if one gives forgiveness, the past remains inexorably written and shall never change. Jean Améry shares my analytical and rigid point of view on the topic of forgiveness in his contribution to the Symposium.
ReplyDelete“Your dying SS man took part in the extermination; he knew very well what he was doing. He may come to terms with his God, if he believes in one, and may just as well die unconsoled. One can also say: What difference does it make? Let him rest in peace, in the name of God or of the Devil, and if my forgiveness matters to him, I’ll give it. Politically, it does not make any difference” (Améry 107).
Although I am not religious, I believe that if forgiveness is granted, it should not be by man, for man cannot annul the atrocities of another. Simon states my opinion verbatim when he converses with Bolek, the new Polish inmate, and accurately states:
“There are requests that one simply cannot grant” (Wiesenthal 83).
It now comes down to what I would have done. If I were in Simon’s position in this situation, I would have done exactly as he had. Simply walk away, giving neither confirmation nor denial. I would have let things be because the events that had transpired in the hospital room and in Simon’s lifetime were committed against millions of innocents, and it would not have been in my power to allow him any consolation, for it is nothing but an illusion to grant us a feeling of inner peace.
Dang Kyle. Quite the vocabulary.
DeleteGood job, you put out a very good argument; even though I don't quite agree with it, it is very believing.
DeleteThis is really good, Kyle! Although I think that Simon should have forgiven him, you made a lot of valid points to argue otherwise. I really like the quote you chose from Amery about how one man's forgiveness doesn't really matter. This made me think about it differently.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"Although I am not religious, I believe that if forgiveness is granted, it should not be by man, for man cannot annul the atrocities of another." I completely agree with this, Kyle! I really like your response, and your quotes fit together nicely. Your arguement makes a lot of sense!
DeleteI agree with your response, that a man himself cannot forgive another man for his actions, and that even if he did, it would change nothing. All it would do is be an attempt to bury any animosity. As a religious person, I feel that Karl should ask for forgiveness from God. It was a very good response and I agree with it.
DeleteKyle I really agree with your post, especially the first few thoughts. My thoughts are exactly the same: Why is forgiveness so expected? I am just wondering though, would you mean to say that nothing is worth forgiving or just a few things?
DeleteWow, good job Kyle! I agree with your points. To walk away seems like the best thing a person could do in this situation after everything that has happened.
DeleteKyle, you have a solid point. It takes a lot of mental strength to forgive someone who was part of such a bad thing. I like both of your quotes!
DeleteI do not think that it is right to forgive someone who has committed such horrible crimes even if he is truly remorseful about it. That shouldn't make a difference, as they still committed those crimes. Karl continues to feel sorry for himself, and continues to tree the Jews as Subhuman when he said, "Look, those Jews died quickly, they did not suffer as I do-though they are not as guilty as I am," (Wiesenthal, 52). I still believe that nobody has the right to forgive for someone else, as the only people who can are those who suffered. Karl also knew what he was getting into when he volunteered for the SS. Nechama Tec says exactly what I was thinking throughout all of our discussions and debates: "First, as human beings we ought to anticipate the consequences of our actions and take personal responsibility for them. Second, and more importantly, I have no right to forgive crimes committed against others. Only those who were harmed, in this case the murdered Jews, have a right to forgive, not I," (Nechama Tec, 257). Karl also seemed like he would have kept killing and committing horrible crimes, as he describes on page 51 that he continued fighting for weeks. He didn't give an indication of stopping the fighting or killing until he survived a near death experience with the artillery round landing next to him. I would have told Karl before I left the room that forgiveness is up to those you have killed.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Jack. I have stated a similar arguement that he should not have asked for Simon to forgive his crimes against others. Instead, I used a diffferent quote from Terrence Prittie on page 234, and I had a different take on what he should have done in my response.
DeleteI completely agree with you Jack. I think that the only person who can forgive Karl are those you he has killed and God. And who knows he could of just been apologizing because he was on his death bed. I really liked the quote you chose from page 52 because I think that that quote really sums up your whole view in one important line.
DeleteJack,
DeleteI do not agree with your argument but you made valid points that were extremely recognizable.Your writing style created an easy read for the reader, but at the same time made me think more for myself. I especially like the quote you chose from page 257,"First, as human beings we ought to anticipate the consequences of our actions and take personal responsibility for them. Second, and more importantly, I have no right to forgive crimes committed against others. Only those who were harmed, in this case the murdered Jews, have a right to forgive, not I." Great job Jack!
Jack, I really like how you started your arguement about forgiveness and I agree with you completely. I really like how you said that the only people that had the right to forgive the nazis were the murdered jews and not yourself. I also agree that Karl, if not having been injuered, would have continued to commit his horrible crimes. We had pretty similar viewpoints! Nice arguement!
DeleteThis was a great symposium response, and the first quote you used was a great argument for why Karl should never be forgiven. I also think that your response, "I would have told Karl before I left the room that forgiveness is up to those you have killed" is a great way to respond to this nearly impossible situation. I liked the way you put together this response, and thought you did a really good job.
DeleteI like the points you have made a lot Jack! I agree with everything you have said. It was not up to Simon to forgive Karl and he should not have put him in that position. I think Karl was only asking for forgiveness because he was on his death bed. If not, Im sure he would have kept on killing like he had been and not take a stand on stopping it no matter how bad he says he felt.
DeleteI agree with Jack, because I also talked about in my response how Karl most certainly would have kept fighting if he hadn't be nearly dying or wounded. I also really like what Jack would have done, he said, "I would have told Karl before I left the room that forgivennes is up to those you have killed". I really like this, because it is not for any of us to forgive or not to forgive on behalf of all the Jews that were killed.
DeleteI don't think I will ever fully understand what Simon went through during the holocaust. From what I can imagine though, I could never forgive Karl for what he did. In my opinion Karl should not have even asked for forgiveness. He committed extremely violent crimes and forced Wiesenthal to listen to him as he described them. When Karl was describing one of his crimes he says "We heard screams and saw the flames eat their way from floor to floor. . . We had our rifles ready to shoot down anyone who tried to escape from that blazing hell. . ." (Wiesenthal 42). I strongly believe Karl doesn't understand the full extent of the damage he caused. I don't think Karl understood how hard this was for Simon to hear. Honestly he should have just apologized and then be done with it. Asking for forgiveness was taking it a step to far. Also I would have had no right to forgive him on behalf of the entire Jewish community. Moshe Bejski says "such an act of mercy would have been a kind of betrayal and repudiation of the memory of millions who were unjustly murdered, among them, the members of his family" (Bejski 115). I agree with this statement completely. Forgiving Karl is like walking out on the all of the casualties due to nazi violence and saying its ok. Also considering the fact that a lot of my family could have been part of these deaths would make it impossible for me to forgive Karl. I fully believe that Karl would have continued killing if he hadn't been in a near death experience. So because of these reasons I would have told Karl that he doesn't deserve forgiveness and I would probably have said that if he wasn't about to die he would still be killing.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Madison. I liked your response to The Sunflower because you wrote down what was in your head.Also you chose good quotes that supported on what would have done. I liked your last sentence because it is direct on what you feel about The Sunflower.
DeleteI never thought about how it was bad that Karl would even ask for forgivness but i agree with you. I think that after you have done something as bad as what did you shouldnt even of asked for forgivness. I liked all the quote you choose to suport your arguement also they changed my opinion on if he should be forgiven or not.
DeleteI liked your response, Madison! I never really thought about how Karl was feeling when he committed those crimes, and this entry changed my view of Karl. Your quotes are really powerful, especially the one about the family in the fire. I also never considered that Karl asking for forgiveness was "taking it a step to far." Your essay is very good, and really got me thinking!
DeleteMadison Thompson you just summed up everything that I was thinking. I agree and posted that Karl did not know the damage he was causing, not just to the victims but also to their families. "Forgiving Karl is like walking out on the all of the casualties due to nazi violence and saying its ok" (Madison Thompson). I also agree with that if Karl did not get injured and die, he would be out there continuing to kill, and never thinking about his actions, but since he was in the hospital, he had nothing else to do. He was in the hospital for a reason, so he could think of all the horrific things he had done and live his last days suffering.
DeleteNot being in Simon's shoes makes it very difficult to fully respond the this hard question. But, In my opinion, Simon should not hard forgiven Karl. Karl felt sorry for himself. He was dying and in order to free his guilty conscience he turns to someone who is going through the hardest thing they will ever experience. Some people in the symposium said that he didn't ask Simon to answer for all the Jews, but he was. He thought that is one could forgive, then all of them had forgiven him. "...I feared at first, that you had really forgiven him. You would have no right to do this in the name of people who had not authorized you to do so" (Wiesenthal, 65). This quote speaks out the most for me because it validates my thoughts about forgiving for everyone. Obviously not everyone would have ever even thought of forgiving him.
ReplyDeleteI do not practice a specific religion, so I do not have certain views that I must stand by. However, I think that if forgiveness is granted, I think it should be by the people that the crime was committed to. Karl doesn't have any idea what is doing to Simon by making him relive the horrors that he committed and then asking Simon to forgive him for the people. I think the idea is insane. One quote that stuck out to me in the symposium was, "But how can forgiveness be asked of someone whose death sentence will be soon carried out by the dying man's partners in crime, who are part of the same regime, when the dying person himself admits that he too has been committing these same crimes against the Jewish people and was only stopped when the hand of God overtook him"(Bejski, 114). I feel like this quote perfectly explains my feelings towards Karl. I don't think it could have been said any better. Karl shouldn't have gone to Simon. What he did was selfish and inconsiderate and I would have never forgiven him.
Anastasia,your response was good on what you thought about forgiving or not forgiving Karl.I like your response on what you would have done if you were in Simon's shoes. Your choice of quotes was good because they went along with what you are saying.Also the quotes that you chose to go along with your statement made your response better.
DeleteI have never came up with the idea that Karl shouldn't have gone to Simon. I agree with you because he just wants to less his guiltyness and wants to die in peace. Karl should die how the Jewish people had died.
Deletei agree with you that Karl shouldnt of been forgiven and i like how yu back your opinion up. But i also think that it wa wrong of Karl to even ask for forgivness in the first place. I would understand him asking forgivness from God but never someone that was already in a bad place in his life. I understand he was about to die and all but its to late to change what he did and noone who did these horrible things should ever be forgiven.
DeleteWhen Peter denied Jesus three times before the crow sounded at the break of dawn, not only did Peter feel shame, but he also felt infamy, and dishonor. Those words do not describe half of what he felt at the time. Why do I mention this sad short story? I allude to this reference because of solely one purpose. To demonstrate the fact that although he committed a great sin, not against man, but against God, towards the end he asked for forgiveness, and an unhappy story ended with a joyful finale when God forgave him. Why? It was because they erased the past, and looked for the future. If Peter was forgiven, then why do we constantly argue and ponder about whether or not to forgive Karl? People will say “he helped accomplish the eradication of the Jews!” That is true, but people are merely forgetting the facts that the Nazi Youth used propaganda to attract adolescent teenagers to join, as well as when Karl finally enrolled, he felt guilty about killing all the Jews.
ReplyDeleteOne person whom I agreed with greatly was Edward. H. Flannery. I have used this quote once before, and I will use it again, “Should it be ‘seven times’? Speaking out of his Jewish tradition, his answer was, ‘Seventy times seven times’-a metaphorical way of saying ‘always’ (Flannery 137). Whenever I read this passage, it reaffirms my beliefs more than it was before. The holocaust was a terrible period of time, and I will never know what Simon felt because I was never put in a situation like this, but what I do know is that when Karl asked Simon to forgive him, it was my understanding that it was not forgiveness on behalf of the Jews, rather it was a personal forgiveness that Karl had hoped to hear escape Simon’s lips, but unfortunately did not. There are not many passages in the story that can agree with my statement, but the fact that Karl repented was enough.
“In that moment I saw the burning family, the father with the child and behind them the mother-and they came to meet me. ‘No I cannot shoot at them a second time’ (Wiesenthal 51). This passage gives the essence that Karl was repenting, and although he should have asked God for forgiveness, he also wanted to repent in the presence of a Jew because he felt guilty of his past.
Now what would I have done…My whole commentary explains one point, and that is I will never know how it felt to be put in that position. But in terms of my faith, forgiveness is always the best route as it creates perfect peace. If people will just think about those two words, they will understand why I have chosen this path to walk on.
You make good points, and I see your argument even though it's different from mine, but I don't agree with you when you say that he didn't want "forgiveness on behalf of the Jews, rather it was a personal forgiveness that Karl had hoped to hear escape Simon's lips." Karl didn't commit these crimes against Simon, so how could it have been a personal forgiveness? Karl wanted any Jew he could find, not Simon specifically, showing that he wanted any Jew to forgive on behalf of all Jews, otherwise he would've sought out someone specific.
DeleteI see your aruement, and like other classmates you rely on religion to give you that extra strength to make the decision to forgive. It was also a good arguement that, "I will never know how it felt to be put in that position"(Mekhail), because we will never be able to comprehend the emotion of knowing that I could be shot dead as soon as I wake up.
DeleteI think you made really good points, although they were very religious. One point that made me question my opinion (but only just for a second?;) was when you said "It was because they erased the past and looked towards the future." I really agree with that; you need to be able to forget in order to look towards the future, but also it makes you think- will anyone really forget the Holocaust?
DeleteForgetting the past, living the present, and looking toward the future were drilled into my brain on a constant basis. I partially understand where the Jews are coming from. They were told that they were lower than dogs,not human, and were beaten hourly. I was bullied in a less helacious way; however, I was told by old and young that I would be nothing. I did not know if I was going to make it out of elementary school.
ReplyDeleteI believe in Matthew Fox's words on page 148 when he said, "Forgetting and forgiving are two seperate acts." I could never forget the pain of being pushed into walls, lockers, and doors everyday. I could never forget leaving school early due to being beat up by a group of kids just because you look different. The Jews will never forget being killed by the millions in gas chambers, and massarcres.
It is even harder to forgive it. I forgive you even though you killed my brothers, sisters, and children. I cannot say that even with my faith. "According to the Jewish tradition, even God himself can only forgive sins commited against Himself, not against man" (Heschel 171). If God cannot forgive you, then what makes Karl think a mortal man can? I believe that Simon made the righ choice. I would have done the same thing. On a sidenot, I think it was pure irony to have "f" at the beginning of each of these words:Forgiveness, Forget, and Future.
This is really good! I like how you connected the story with a personal experience of yours. I don't completely agree with your choice to not forgive Karl, but I think you made a lot of good points.
DeleteI agree with you on how you should never forget, and I agree with Sarah on how you made this personal and added a story. Even though I don't agree with forgiving Karl or walking out and leaving him with the slight chance that you would forgive him, I can understand where you are coming from and respect your decision.
Delete"It is even harder to forgive it." Mackenzie, you made me think about which would be harder for me to do: forgive or forget. Although in general I think forgiveness is an emotionally difficult act, I think forgetting something like this couldn't even be possible for me. I can control who/what I forgive, but I can't control what I remember and forget. Thus, I actually think it would be harder (impossible, really) to forget.
Delete"I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed." (The Dalai Lama, 129) No one could say it better than what the Dalai Lama said; it's just like what John F. Kennedy was going for: "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
ReplyDeleteI would have forgiven Karl because it is not only the right thing to do, but also because it is what my religion tells me to do: "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew: 6 14-15) and also what Flannery says on page 136, "It is a cardinal principle of Judeo-Christian ethics that forgiveness always be granted to the sincerely repentant."
Now the question is was Karl being sincere about his forgiveness? I say yes he was, for two big reasons. Not only is Karl going into so much deep thought about all the bad things he has done, but it was the reason why he was in the hospital dying: "I stopped as though rooted to the ground. Something seized me. My hands began to tremble. In that moment I saw the burning family, the father with the child and behind them the mother. 'No i cannot shoot at them a second time.'... And then a shell exploded by my side. I lost consciousness." (Wiesenthal, 51) As you can see why would Karl stop and think about the things he has done if he didn't care about it, he obviously was sincere; THE MAN HAS NOTHING TO LOSE. Karl is going to die so why would he lie?
My second reason is that Karl had the will to do what so many other SS man could not; he asked for forgiveness from a Jew, the people they patronized. This was a big deal because Karl is treating him like they are equal. It takes a lot of courage to do that, there was a very few number of Nazis who actually did it.
I can understand why Simon did what he did. The Nazis took his whole life away from him and gave him the worst memories that he will ever have in his life. And obviously being in a concentration camp would effect your decision dramatically. But no matter what I would have forgiven the man.
I completely agree with you. I used the same quote that you used said by the Dalai Lama and I am also aware of the John F. Kennedy quote that you used. I also love the quote you pulled from the bible which is why in our faith, we have to forgive in order to be forgiven. I couldn't have said what your wrote better myself. I literally agree with everything you stated and I really like how you researched other quotes like the one by John F. Kennedy and also the one from the bible. Well said, Shawn.
DeleteShawn I completely agree with you. I would have forgiven also for the same reason. I really liked how back your statement with a passage from the book of Matthew and the quote from Dalai Lama. This is great quote to use because the quote is about how you are supposed to forgive.
DeleteEven though I may not agree with your statement comepletely, reading your post gave me and insight on how others who may have forgiven Karl would have done. Being raised in a Christian household, I am taught to forgive those who has sinned against us. But I have forgotten that we must forgive to be forgiven also, and you reminded me of that.
DeleteYour piece is well written; however you said that you should forgive every man who has sinned against you, but Karl has killed hundreds of people, more than just sinning against you. If he had harmed you personally, then yes you could forgive him for that, but those he has killed are the ones who can give forgiveness. And even though he might have been sincere when he was asking for forgiveness on his deathbed, it would have meant so much more had he asked for it when he was okay and not about to die. Remember he said that he kept fighting for weeks, so he likely commited many other unspeakable crimes.
DeleteYou have a good arguement Shawn, but I have to disagree with some things you say. Karl did not necessarly treat Simon like an equal. He referred to him as a Jew and that's all that matters. He never even took the time to ask his name or anything about him. Karl did not reconize Simon as an individual but just another Jew. Simon might have been sincere, but yes he has nothing to lose, so why not ask for forgiveness even though he does not deserve it. If Karl actually felt that bad after he killed all those innocent people, he wouldnt have continued in the SS and continue fighting for something he knew was wrong.
DeleteI completely agree with you, and I think that the the quotes you picked back your arguement help support you.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Forgiving is not something we do for another person."(Lawrence L. Langer,186) This is a great quote because it is clearly explaining that forgiveness is not something we do to please people. We forgive because it is the right thing to do and that we know in our hearts that it is what God would do. Now the question is, is Karl being sincere about his forgiveness? I thought at first that he was not at all and that he was just trying to get off the hook as fast as possible so maybe he would have a chance of living. Now that I have thought about it some more, I understand where he is coming from and I agree with him completely.
ReplyDeleteKarl has gone to all of the trouble to gain enough confidence and ask him for his forgiveness after all of the events that Karl had done.
"I stopped as though rooted to the ground. Something seized me. My hands began to tremble. At that moment I saw the burning family. I thought, no I can't shoot them a second time.(Wiesenthal, 51) This is where I know his forgiveness is real because Karl just stopped in the middle of the war. Karl is all or nothing. He is on his death bed waiting to die and before he dies, he wants everybody to know he feels and gives the most sincere and heartwarming apology that I have ever heard.
The most important thing that Karl did was that he had the courage to ask forgiveness from a Jew. No other SS man would have done that, but Karl did because he knew it was the right thing to do. In the end, I would have forgiven Karl. It would not have been that easy considering his past, but this man was truly sorry and anyone with a heart should forgive that.
You really back up a great quote(Wiesenthal's), with a great response. I could tell which side of the argument you were on even if I don't agree with it. I can tell you would truly forgive Karl for his actions.
DeleteOn the other side I have a heart and i would not forgive him. You know why?, because I have a brain and a heart. I use them both when making decisions that could not only effect myself, but also the person your forgiving. How could you live with yourself knowing you forgave a murderer of men, women, and children! What if right before Karl asked for your forgiveness, an SS soldier came to your house and killed kiwi. Then you would not only use your heart, but you would use your mind and you wouldn't forgive Karl.
Good Job Scottie!
“In that moment I saw the burning family, the father with the child and behind them the mother—and they came to meet me. ‘No, I cannot shoot at them a second time’. The thought Flashed through my mind… And then a shell exploded by my side.” (Wiesenthal 51) Who am I to mentally torment someone? Who am I to send someone into an abyss of guilt? Who am I not to forgive the repentant? Gandhi said an eye for an eye would make the whole world blind. Simons lack of forgiveness is not some act of theological justice, for it is an act of petty revenge. There is hardly a worse anguish than when one is truly sorry as Karl is, but cannot prove it. His ultimate undoing was his tremendous guilt showing through on a battlefield. “It is a cardinal principle of Judeo-Christian ethics that forgiveness must always be granted to the sincerely repentant.” (Flannery 136) Simon is not following his religion in denying a man on his deathbed, he is disobeying it, so he has no religious excuse for lack of forgiveness either. In the words of Desmond Tutu “Forgiveness is not some nebulous thing. It is practical politics. Without forgiveness, there is no future.” (Tutu 268).
ReplyDeleteI liked how you opened the prompt with a quote by Karl. This automatically got me interested in what you were writing and took me right into what Karl and Simon were feeling. I also liked how you used rhetorical questions to get into the minds of the reader. Although I do not agree with your opinion, I think it was well written.
DeleteDaniel, this made me open my eyes to another point which you made. Was it revenge by Simon and was Simon disobeying his religion? Yes. I would completely agree with that. Simon may view the SS as selfish which they are but by Simon completely blowing off Karl, he is also just as selfish. That connected perfectly to your great quote "An eye for an eye makes the world go blind." If every action has a counter action, the world would just be a terrible place. Some of that exists but most of the time, there is an act of forgiveness. Thats is what keeps the world going round.
DeleteDaniel,
DeleteI genuinly enjoyed reading your "symposium" on the question of forgiveness.Your argument helped me justify that my decision to forgive was the right one. My favorite line from your piece was, "Simons lack of forgiveness is not some act of theological justice, for it is an act of petty revenge." I thought you backed up your argument nicely with meaningful quotes and you also made your strong opinions stand out.
Daniel,
DeleteI liked how you asked questions, and stated what you believe right from the beginning. I think you have great quotes, and I totally agree with your point of view.
Daniel,
DeleteI cannot disagree more with your symposium. I agree that Karl was in pain, but there is no doubt in my mind that the people Karl hurt, or even Simon was in more pain than Karl. Karl was living his last few days in a nice, air conditioned, heated, and furnished hospital with food, water, and pain medication. Simon, and the other Jews were starving,hurt, in constant pain, and worked beyond belief every single day. Simon did not owe Karl anything.
“Without forgetting there can be no forgiving” (Bejski 116) This is a good quote because I think none of the SS men deserve any forgiveness because the horrible crimes they committed are unforgettable. Karl did not have the right to go ask Simon or any Jew for forgiveness, because the only people who can give forgiveness would be the people he killed and God. I think that Karl should of told Simon the story but instead of asking for forgiveness he should of just apologized for the wrongs he did. Then he should of gone to God and asked Him for forgiveness. I think Karl should have done that because since he was on his death bed I think he was just doing that for his own benefit not to sincerely get an apology. When everyone is on there death bed and dying you want to do what ever is possible to try to die in peace and that was all that Karl was doing was trying to die in peace. If he had not been on his death bed he would not of apologized to anyone Jews and would of continued doing the horrible things he was doing to people. With that being said if I was in Simons position I would not of forgiven Karl cause I would not know how sincere he was being.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the idea of not actually asking for forgiveness, but instead simply apologizing. I feel he would not have truly been at peace though.
DeleteI agree with Daniel on this, because apologizing is like forcing forgiveness. Also Simon could have rejected his apology.
Delete"To forgive the Nazis who threw children on the fire and locked them in the houses to be incinerated is to become one with the Nazis" (Brown 122). If we forgive the Nazis, we create a premise that what they did was acceptable, and that people can do it again in the future. Karl knew exactly what he was getting into, and he wasn't drafted, he volunteered. "When the war broke out I volunteered, naturally in the SS" (Wiesenthal 32). People have argued that once he was in he was in for good, and that no one ever did, but my grandfather and some of his friends ran away from the Nazi army when they were 16 after being drafted, and not only escaped Germany, but made it to America without ever killing anyone.
ReplyDeleteA lot of the responses in the Symposium stated that Simon should have forgiven Karl because of his religion, but I don't think forgiveness should be something mandated for us, because if we automatically forgive, what's the harm for anyone who wants to hurt us? Even if Simon had wanted to, he still could not have forgiven Karl, because Karl had not committed the crime against him. The only people who could forgive Karl were the ones he had killed, "According to Jewish tradition, even God Himself can only forgive sins committed against Himself, not against man" (Heschel 171).
You made a lot of really good points in here! I like the part you added about your grandfather escaping the Nazi army to come to America. This made me think differently about Karl now that I know it was possible to get out.
DeleteI completely agree with you Diana. I think your quotes were very powerful and they supported your ideas perfectly. I like how you added the personal bit about your family as well. I agree with the fact that Karl shouldn't have asked forgiveness from someone who hadn't even been involved in the crime he had committed. Your second quote is very strong and proves that Karl joined the SS voluntarily and that it was his decision to partake. I love your response.
DeleteDiana, you have a lot of good arguements in your essay. I completely agree with what you said about Karl volunteering, because yes, he did volunteer, and willingly, knowing what he was getting into. This also goes with what you said about your grandfather escaping the Nazis and never even killing anyone! This shows that Karl could have escaped just like grandfather. I liked that you added that little detail about your grandfather, it made your response/essay more personal and compelling.
DeleteDiana, you make some good points, but in my opinion I believe that yes, your grandfather managed to escape, but other Germans unfortunately could not. We do not know what happens in people's everyday lives, but Karl had no choice, and in my opinion scared.
DeleteI completely and totally agree with you. The point you made that really stood out to me was when you talked about how this man volunteered for the army, and he knew exactly what he was going to do. These are actually the same points I made during the debate. This was a really good, strong argument.
DeleteReligion is a choice, and like it we have a choice to forgive. Religion does not force anything upon anyone. Free will is the ultimate gift we have, so I agree somewhat with you Diana.
DeleteI would never forgive Karl under any circumstances. Jean Amery, from the symposium, said that Simon should have forgiven Karl to let him die in peace, at first I thought the same. Then I thought that all of the people that Karl killed did not die in peace so why should he? I disagree with Jean Amery, but he provided me with the quote: “Your dying SS man took part in the extermination, he knew very well what he was doing. He may come to terms with his God, if he believes in one, and may just as well die unconsoled. One can also say: What difference does it make? Let him rest in peace, in the name of God or of the Devil,”(Amery 107).
ReplyDeleteWhen Simon was in Karl’s mother’s house, he did not tell her of all the things that Karl had told Simon. “I hesitated. I did not want to destroy the woman’s memory of her “good” son.” (Wiesenthal 87). Simon is considerate and thought about his actions before he did them because he did not want to spoil the memories of Karl for her, she can live in peace. What you don’t know won’t hurt you. When Karl took part in the mass genocide, he did not think about all of the family attached to every single person he was killing. Those family members, and holocaust survivors will never be able to live in peace knowing that their relatives were killed just because of their religion, sexuality, or appearance.
Karl should not have been forgiven and did not die in peace, just like his victims died.
I agree with you that Simon should not have forgiven Karl, but I had not previously thought about this point. Why should Karl get to die happy, when that definitely wasn't his main concern when stuffing Jews into a house to be burned down. My only confusion lies in why Simon would let the mother die happy and not Karl. Why should they not be treated equally, and have the mother know of her sons evil deeds?
DeleteI completely agree with you Bethany I think Karl does not deserve to die in peace because all the people he killed did not die in peace, they died being tortured. I liked how you included how Simon did not tell Karl's mother any thing because he did not want to ruin his mother's memory of her good son. I personally think by Simon doing that is enough to put his conscience abey because he did the right thing not forgiving Karl cause he had no right to nor did Karl have any right to ask Simon for forgiveness, but instead of making his mom think he was an awful person he did the opposite. I think that by its self is amazing.
DeleteI agree that Simon should not have forgiven Karl, but I did not think of it in the way that you did. I liked your argument that he should not die in peace because others has bit died in peace as well. It gave me a new way to look at the same predicament
DeleteBethany, I agree completely with your response. Karl doesn't deserve to die in peace after he killed so many other people so violently. I think your quotes are very supportive and helpful. I like how you included your initial thoughts to the situation as well. I just don't understand why Simon didn't tell Karl's mother about his awful deed. I think she needs to know what her son has done.
DeleteYou bring up some really good points Bethany. I do agree with what you said about how if his victims didn't die in peace, why should he? What gives Karl the right to have his final wish granted if the people he's killing didn't even get to express theirs?
DeleteWhy is forgiveness so expected? Society thinks that forgiveness is a right, something that anyone who repents deserves. Forgiveness is not something you get you earn it. Harry James Cargas also shares my view. "Forgiveness is not something we may depend on others for. We must earn it somehow" (Cargas 125).
ReplyDeleteKarl does not in anyway deserve forgiveness. One should keep in mind, had he not been facing death head on, would he still have sought forgiveness? Even so, was his apology even sincere? His repentance was not complete. "He did not express repentance for one-can-only-guess-how-many acts of hatred and sadism and antisemitism he committed on other occasions as an SS man-only for the one gruesome occasion which interfered with his sleep...and so the confession that he made on his deathbed to Simone Wisenthal was only partial" (Fox 144). Had Karl's mind and heart changed and really felt guilt, his deathbed confession should have lasted days, not a couple of hours.
If I were put into Simon's place, my decision would have been easy. I would have plainly told this man that he in no place deserves to even ask for forgiveness. How can he ask one victim of his atrocious actions to forgive him on behalf of the millions of lives he has affected. Too many people look at the death toll of the Holocaust as a statistic. No one seems to realize that for each and every one of the people that died, their family, their friends and their communities that are still, are also suffering.
I would have told Karl that he made his bed; it was his decision. He decided to join the Hitler Youth, and now he has to face the complications that come with the actions he took. Karl the SS Officer would not receive forgiveness from me.
I found your first paragraph quite strong. You explained your point well, and your wording helped prove your point nicely. I loved the expressions you added in there as well! There were two or three sentences that had some grammer errors, but overall it was well written. Good work.
DeleteYou make a very strong point Simran, and I agree with you. If he wasn't on his deathbed I don't believe he would have attempted to appologize. If he was being sincere about his appology, he should have thought back on his actions, and not have joined Hitlers Youth in the first place or quit when he found out his actions, just as you said.
DeleteSimran, I really love how you commented on that forgiveness should be earned, not just given. Its completely true! I think people just expect forgiveness when ever they make any little mistake. So when they really mess up, they do no try to earn forgiveness. I also like how you added that the death toll should not just be a statistic. I know that if SS men murdered my family, I would not be able to forgive any SS man who felt remorseful of killing a building full of Jews.
DeletePeople can't base their values and views of what others think. One must venture on his own to experience it for himself. This is why the Nazis including Karl cannot be forgiven at any cost because no one was there to see or feel it happening. "Can considerations and behaviors be analyzed after so many years and under conditions of peace and well-being?" (Bejski 112). I strongly agree with this question because after it having happened so many years ago, I can't imagine how people can have such strong opinions of how they can forgive those nazis for doing what they did. I strongly think Karl cannot be forgiven because I wasn't there in any single Jew's shoes and can't picture myself feeling and going through what they did at the time. Forgiving them to me is saying they did a small little mistake, and they feel bad so lets just move on and act like it never happened. That is just too much for anyone to forget and therefore, nobody can forgive.
ReplyDeleteFrom Emily Wolff:
DeleteI loved how you explained your opinion and how you expressed that we should not taken this part of time lightely. We have to remember so that it doesn't happen again. Even more now becasue since a lot of the Holocaust survivors are passing away, our generation has to help to kepp the stories going so that it does not happen again.
I agree 100% with everything you wrote. I did not think of how if people forget, the Holocaust memory and the memories of the survivors, the people killed, and the families of the survivors and ones killed will be erased.
DeleteWhy should we punish ourselves by dwelling on hurt we experienced in the past? Shouldn’t we forgive the person, take the lessons learned if any, and get on with this short journey we call life? My answer is yes. “Forgiving is the real power” (Hobday 175). Hobday says it perfectly, forgiving is for the bigger man. It’s for the man who is strong enough to not let a person or situation alter his entire outlook, mood, or life. Yes, what the SS men did was terrible and will go down in history for one of humanity’s lowest point, but based on my given understanding of Simon’s situation and my faith’s teachings I would’ve granted Karl forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteThe bible says “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” -1 John 1:9 notice in this verse he uses the word confess. I believe if a person is sincere about asking for forgiveness they would not be shy and in denial about their wrongdoings. In this case Karl confessed to the actions in which he took part, which showed to me that he wasn’t trying to hide from the truth that haunts him everyday. Ultimately, God will be the one to determine what is done with Karl after he passes but for Simon’s sake forgiving would’ve helped him move along with his own life, allowing him to be free of this regret, and worry he has in his life because of choosing to leave the room without say.
Lilly,
DeleteI completely agree with you. My symposium was similar in that it was based off of WWJD (What would Jesus do). Some of the information you used was very interesting, especially Hobday's work you used in your symposium. Well Done!
"Yes, what the SS men did was terrible and will go down in history for one of humanity’s lowest point, but based on my given understanding of Simon’s situation and my faith’s teachings I would’ve granted Karl forgiveness." This is my favorite line from your respsonse! Your writing style, descriptive words, and transitions made it so interesting to read, which I did about three times. I also agreed completely with your argument on the topic of forgiveness.You did an outstanding job picking quotes that backed up your argument. Theres nothing negative i have to say about this piece!
DeleteWeber, I relate to your response 100%. Because it is for the divine judgement to decide who is forgiven for their sins and who is not. But it is for our own sanity that we forgive in order to not dwell from experiences in the past. Forgiving is a choice and if you forgive you are forgiven. And I think you summed that statement up so well in your response. I love what you wrote and agree with every single word of it.
DeleteLilly, I really like your reasons for forgiving Karl. I agree that forgiving someone will take away the power they have over you and you can move on. These types of reasons almost convinced me that forgiving Karl is the right thing to do.
Delete“What people have done to yourself, you can, if you like, forgive and forget. That is your own affair. But it would have been a terrible sin to burden your conscience with other people’s sufferings” (Wiesenthal 65). I truly believe that Karl is sorry for what he did, but he should have apologized to Simon rather than ask for forgiveness. If Simon would have forgiven Karl or not many Jews would have disagreed with him. “How would it seem then if you had forgiven him? Would not the dead people from Dnepropetrovsk come to you and ask ‘Who gave you the right to forgive our murderer?’”(Wiesenthal 66). Either way he would have disappointed somebody. Since all the people Karl has hurt are dead the only person who can forgive him now is God. “This was a matter between him and his Creator, not between him and a single, stay Jew picked out of a random working-party and forced to listen to his “confession” (Prittie 234). I would have told Karl that he should ask God for forgiveness since he did not hurt me. This would have been better to tell Karl instead of walking away and leaving him unknown to my decision.
ReplyDeletePam, I agree with you compleatly. If Karl wanted to appologize for his actions tword the Jews, he should have broadcasted that, as unrealistic as that would be. In reality, there really would be no way for him to properly appologize. He had no athority to.
DeleteForgiveness doesn't always have to be sincere. It seems I'm nicer than the majority of people who replied to the question. It seems Karl actually regretted and felt bad about his actions. "Believe me, I would be ready to suffer worse and longer pains if by that means I could bring back the dead," (Wiesenthal 53). Karl's regret and his need to be at peace would be enough for forgiveness. I would forgive him out of kindness and to put him to rest. The question is whether or not I was actually sincere about it. The problem is that there are so many variables that could affect the answer. "Under only slightly different circumstances, you might have forgiven the dying man. Suppose you had seen his pleading and imploring eyes, which may have had more of an effect on you than his rasping voice or folded hands. Or suppose that just before that encounter, you had been in contact with one of those "decent" SS men, whom we all knew, who had treated you with a little bit of kindness, putting you in a more tolerant mood." (Amery 106-107). I would like to think i would be sincere with my forgiveness, but if I had gone things Simon had I could've just as easily been mad enough to strangle Karl.
ReplyDeleteMax, this is a really well put together piece. I am with you on your opinion of what you would have done if you were in Simon's shoes. The thing you have to remember is that he was a man who has killed a lot of Jews. Would you have a big enough heart to forgive a man who is on his deathbed. I like the quotes you put into this piece because they really exemplify what you wrote in your response and they correspond to your opinion well.
DeleteHow can you be sure that Karl was truly regretting what he had done? It is possible that he was trying to seem like a better person when he was seeking forgiveness from Simon. I do agree with your last sentence since many people who say they would forgive or want to forgive don't put themselves in Simons shoes.
DeleteGrossman, although your quote is very convincing, and well used, I still disagree with you. I don't think it has anything to do with the mood you are in, because what Karl did is so wrong and unjust that you shouldn't be swayed by simple emotions. This was a very well thought out argument, but there is just not enough evidence to really back it up.
DeleteThe mood doesn't matter as much. The question still remains whether I mean it or not, and I am swayed by simple emotions. I would still forgive him no matter what even if it's a lie and doesn't mean anything to me.
DeleteGrossman, you put out a very thoughtful quote and arguement, but I don't think i can agree with you. I don't think you can put yourself in any jew's shoes and feel their emotions. Karl and the rest of the Nazis commited horrible crimes that are still not forgotten today, therefore, we still cannot forgive them today. If you really believe this, you may want to research a bit more on how Karl could be forgiven and it could be a bit more convincing from the forgiving point of view. Overall, it was a pretty solid arguement.
DeleteGrossman,
DeleteI have to agree With Jack Parker, he could have easily been asking for forgiveness because he was on his deathbed. I do agree with your second quote saying his mood could have affected his answer, but this does still not change the fact that he could not be fully sincere. When faced with death, people will do things they do not agree with, or believe.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete“The Rabbi’s answer was brief: NO.” (Heschel 171) Heschel makes a perfect analogy that really shapes my thoughts around forgiveness. Just as the Rabbi in the Story could not forgive the salesman, neither can I forgive Karl. My opposition to not forgiving Karl has never faltered. I can tell that he was truly repenting, but his acts were so cruel that I could not fathom the possibility of ever forgiving him. I feel that if I were to forgive Karl it would be like forgiving the entire SS army for their cruelty. The thought of forgiving Karl makes me sick to my stomach, and I’m not even Jewish. “We heard screams and saw the flames eat their way from floor to floor… We had our rifles ready to shoot down anyone who tried to escape from that blazing hell” (Wiesenthal 42). My main reason for not forgiving Karl is due to this moment. He knew what he was doing was so far beyond immoral, yet he stood idly by doing nothing to stop the carnage. He deserves the guilt knowing that he was a partaker in the killing of all those Jews. He should have died an honorable death by trying to prevent those people from dying. He would have not only saved them, but he would have also saved himself.
ReplyDeleteSteggs,
DeleteThis is a good piece. You really bring outn your emotions and do a great job of explaining what your opinion is. I don't agree with your decision, but you did you a great job of explaining yourself so it made your article very believable.
I completely agree with you when you said that forgiving Karl is like forgiving the entire SS army. You can't give forgiveness to someone who has done such cruel things to other people, not to you. He continued fighting for weeks after the house on fire, and he likely commited other crimes that are almost as bad. The quotes are also used well, and they support your ideas well.
DeleteI agree completely with your piece, it brings out the perfect points, and you used your quotes to elicit the reader's raw emotion. You are manipulating them to take your side, even if they don't share your opinion. Nice work.
DeleteSteggs, I agree that he deserves the guilt and I think Karl knows he does deserve it having said that doesn't allowing people to get what they deserve defeat the point of forgiveness. Second can't you just forgive him to put Karl at peace. You don't have to mean it or be sincere just be kind. Even in the worst and most terrible times unimaginable acts of kindness are still given. You can hate Karl's guts, but you can still lie and forgive him just to be nice.
DeleteWhile you make a very good point about how their acts were cruel and terrible, I feel that we should forgive them. I agree that Karl should have rather died than killed many Jewish people. He had the free choice to say join the Nazi organization or not. However, I feel like your idea of immediate rejection of forgiveness is a little quick to say. If we don't forgive him, we could spend our lives trying to justify something that was already done.
DeleteI agree with your response, I would not be able to forgive him myself. The cruel actions that Karl did during his life does not let him suddenly ask for forgiveness while he lies on his deathbed. Karl knew what he did and the only forgiveness he should ever get is if he repents to God. Also, I disagree with Rainer, if Karl wanted forgiveness, then he should have asked for forgiveness from all the Jews, and even then he still should not be forgiven.
DeleteI would not have forgiven Karl had I been in Simon’s position. It’s obvious that he regrets that he set fire to the house and killed that family and the other Jews inside, but regret doesn’t make his actions OK. “No matter what, regret never pardons crimes” (Bejski 117). No matter how remorseful he was, he still killed those people, and that can’t be undone. If he had killed my family and friends, my decision to not forgive would be the easiest of my life.
ReplyDeleteKarl said that he needed to confess so that he could die in peace. “I cannot die… without coming clean. This must be my confession” (Wiesenthal 53). If I had been in that room, I would have listened to what he had to say like Simon did, but I wouldn’t have left in silence. I would have told him that I heard his confession, and it’s obvious that he regrets what he did, but what’s done is done, and he has to deal with the consequences of his actions, even if those consequences are not dying in peace.
The people that he should be asking forgiveness from are all dead. I can’t speak for the dead; I don’t know if they would forgive him, and I don’t think that people should forgive on behalf of others. Like Heschel said, “even God Himself can only forgive sins committed against Himself” (Heschel 171). Unfortunately for Karl, no one alive can truly forgive him, no matter how many times “I forgive you” comes out of their mouths. Even if Simon had said yes, Karl will never know if the people he killed would forgive him, and therefore, he will never really be forgiven.
Thuy-Vy, I really like your response! I completely agree that just because you regret something doesn't mean you deserve forgiveness. Also I liked when you talked about how you don't know if his victims would forgive, and you couldn't speak on their behalfs.
DeleteForgiveness is big, and it also has to be earned. Someone just can't go off and break the rules and defy their word, and just expect to be forgiven. This is similar to what happened between Simon Wiesenthal and Karl. Simon in the start of his conversation with karl was sort of sympathetic toward Karl; until Karl told him about the burning house with the boy who jumped from the window. "For me the dark eyed child for whom the man in the bed had spoken was Eli...Up until this point my feelings toward the dying man had tended toward sympathy:now that was the past. The touch of his hand almost caused me physical pain and I drew away," (Wisenthal 47). And now simon even believes that he shouldn't forgive this Nazi. Karl can ask for forgiveness all he wants, but the fact of the matte is that he killed many defenseless jew just because some guy told him to. "I may know something about combat training and about what war can do to a person, but I can also testify that the misery that this man inflicted on his victims defies claiming any extenuating circumstances whatsoever," (Shachnow 242). I completely agree with this quote. Like in the quote if Karl had any conscience whatsoever he would of never done this.
ReplyDeleteZack,
DeleteYour thoughts and opinions are very moving. I understand where you are coming from when you talk about all of things that Karl did. It makes it hard to forgive someone with a record like that. However, You have to think (What would Jesus do?). You have a very good input on this and it was very good piece all together.
Your first sentence is very true, and makes a great start for your symposium too. I completely agree with what you said and also think that your quotes are used very well to support your argument!
DeleteRainer Geis
ReplyDeleteMrs. Gahan
World Literature
September 9, 2012
My Symposium
There are two types of forgiveness. One can forgive for their own personal reasons and to help themselves move on, or one can forgive for the sake of the person asking for forgiveness. Both of these choices can be difficult. Karl had done something that was absolutely terrible. Although there might have been threats, Karl had still chosen to join the Nazis, he had chosen to discriminate against the Jewish people, and he had chosen to kill them. I found it inexcusable when Karl said, "'I was not born a murderer.'" (Wiesenthal 31) He might not have been born a murderer, but he chose to become one. In this situation, I would have never forgiven for Karl's sake, but would I have forgiven at all? In Simon's case, I would have forgiven for myself and to possibly help future generations. I would have forgiven Karl in order to move on, to prevent further violence, and to remain a better person than him. If we did not forgive Karl or someone like Karl, we could waste our lives trying to seek justice against something that has already occurred, unable to move forward. Instead, we should look ahead and be more aware about situations arising which could be similar to the holocaust and other genocides. I believe the Dalai Lama states my thoughts perfectly when he says, "I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed." (Dalai Lama 129)
Rainer, I completely agree with your symposium. I too feel as though forgiveness is for the bigger man in the situation. Your use of quotes really backed up your argument well! I think the fact that you added the stuff about how holding on to this would enable us to move forward really helped your point get across to whoever chooses to read it.
DeleteThis is a great response, and is put together very well. I really liked your sentence "He might not have been born a murderer, but he chose to become one", because I think it perfectly sums up Karl as a person. I don't agree with you however, that we should forgive Karl, even if only to move on. We can not and should not do so, because that would be letting them win, and set a precedent that what they did was ok, so people can do it again in the future without repercussion.
DeleteThe question that Simon asked at the end of the book is a very deep question: You...ask yourself the crucial question, "What would I have done?" Sadly for the perfectionist, there is no right or wrong answer. The ways people could think about Simon’s riddle can be found in two different views. According to Edward Flannery, “The first, the traditional and religious one, holds to the universality and permanence of basic moral laws and thus find them unexceptionable. The second one denies this and in this way relativizes moral norms in order to render them subject to change and dependent on individual and social needs and desires.” (Flannery 137) What Flannery said was what one may think of a religious duty to forgive regardless of the situation, or as a political standard to the situation. I also think that this reflected in the book when Simon was talking to his bunk mates about the encounter, the religious person, Josek, would be a little more open to what Simon’s opinion was. I think it is right to forgive as a religious person, because there is no law that says you can’t forgive a person for what they have done, and that specific person, Karl, Simon was talking to will most definitely not commit any more crimes.
ReplyDeleteI like the way that you took two different approaches, one from theoretical views and one from political views and I feel that made your argument stronger
DeleteI like the good stance you had with how the argument can go both ways, and how Karl could be forgived because he would clearly not repeat the violence he had done against the Jews after his experience. Which could be a very good reason to forgive Karl for his mistakes at the time.
Delete"What would I have done?"(Wiesenthal 98) What would anyone have done? That is the question that is for some reason a needed answer. But in my mind, this is something that should not be asked as it has the potential to create opposing groups on opposite sides of this discussion. My personal opinion is to forgive Karl because I believe he was truly regretful. But forgiveness is no excuse to forget something as horrific as what he did. If Karl did want forgiveness then he would understand that there is a punishment, and for Karl that was death without peace or compassion from Simon.
ReplyDeleteI think this post is well written because of how it shows how forgiveness should be given to Karl because of how he realized what he had done was wrong. But at the same time, it shows great moral value by telling that forgiveness would not be completely right because of what Karl and the SS. officers had done to the other jews as a whole.
Delete“ I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed” (The Dalai Lama 129). The Dalai Lama’s entire response inspired me, but that quote topped all. Simon should have forgiven Karl for his own happiness. Yes, the crimes that Karl admitted to committing were inhumane and unforgettable, but I feel as if Simon deserved to be at peace with himself. Rather than dwell on this event for the rest of his life.
ReplyDeleteDid Karl know what he was signing up for? Is he sincere about asking for forgiveness? “ No one, no memory, should have the power to hold us down, to deny us peace. Forgiving is the real power” (Hobday 175). Hobday hit the bull’s eye for me on this quote. He explained that by Simon forgiving Karl, it would’ve been morally for himself, and of course a small amount of sympathy that might have been left in his conscience would’ve been towards Karl. For Simons Sake and well-being, I would have inclined him to be the bigger person and help this brain washed man die in peace. He did take innocent lives away, but we honestly don’t know the entire story of Karl and from reading the novel, his story was sincere to me.
I understand that Simon feels that he shouldn’t speak on behalf of all the Jews but as a favor to himself. Forgive. The last thing Simon deserves is to live in grief and despair. If he can’t bring himself to do this, let God be the final judge. I believe that Simon should have tried to forgive Karl (for his own sake of course), and if that was too hard at least tell Karl to take up his confession with God, the number one judge of sins.
I completely agree with Maddie. Simon should have forgave Karl for his own sake, not just Karl's. I also agree that if Simon did not say anything, then he could have at least said that it is between him and his God.
DeleteMaddie, I can see from your response that you totally immersed yourself in this book. You seem really passionate about your opinion, and I like that. The quotes you used went well with the rest of your argument. I disagree with your argument, but you gave several valid points towards forgiveness.
DeleteMaddie
DeleteI agree with you, this is what I said in my response. I think that forgiveness is not only for the person who is asking for forgiveness but it is also for you.
After reading the conversation between Simon and Karl, I would not forgive Karl do to his actions. "Look," he said, "those Jews died quickly, they did not suffer as I do-though they were not as guilty as I am." (Karl pg. 52) This quote from my perspective is that Karl is saying 'oh I went through more pain than they did' but actually they went through the same amount of pain as Karl did. When the Jews were about to get gassed in the chambers, they knew what was about to happen to them, also they had nothing to do to get out of that situation. Karl deserved to be guilty of what he did by joining the Hitler Youth to become an SS Officer. To be in Simon's shoes, how could I forgive him, it was his decision to be an SS officer.
ReplyDeleteKarl turned to two people who were Simon and God. "If God chooses to forgive Karl, that's God's affair. Simon Wiesenthal could not, I cannot. For me, Karl dies unforgiven. God have mercy on my soul." (Harry Cargas, pg.125) I agree with Cargas response to Simon on how he would have done. I agree that Simon had his own choice to forgive Karl or not. He wasn't forced to forgive him, no one was forcing him to forgive Karl as his only choice. I wouldn't forgive Karl and if someone was forcing me to say 'I forgive you Karl', I would still say no. Karl deserves it because of what he did to Jews, why he did it, and how he did it. Karl deserves to live with that guilt.
What would I have done? I would not have forgiven Karl, and I would have told him that, but then I would have left without giving him a reason why. I wouldn't have forgiven Karl and I wouldn’t have given him a reason why, because he didn't deserve it and for many reasons. First, Karl was asking Simon to forgive him for all the horrible things he had done to innocent Jews, and he can’t forgive on behalf of every Jew because he has no right to. I agree with what Josek said, “What people have done to you yourself, you can, if you like, forgive and forget. That is your own affair. But it would have been a terrible sin to burden your conscience with other people’s sufferings” (Wiesenthal 65). Josek is saying you can’t forgive for others while they might not want to forgive and I fully agree.
ReplyDeleteSecond, if Karl was not dying and wounded badly then he would have probably continued on killing and torturing innocent Jews, which does not deserve forgiveness at all. I mean, what would Karl have been doing otherwise if he had still been alive? He most certainly would still be part of the Nazi’s killing rampage. Moshe Bejski agrees with this idea too, he says, “Had he not been mortally wounded, he would almost certainly have continued to commit these crimes, along with his comrades, who had volunteered for these assignments of their own free will and in large numbers, never regretting their actions, but rather justifying them by claiming that they had only been carrying out orders” (Bejski 113).
Last but not least, I would like to touch on Prittie’s response. He said, “A persecuted Jew could only forgive wrongs done to him personally; he could not possibly forgive genocide” (Prittie 234). I just wanted to say that I agree with Prittie that Karl was basically asking Simon to forgive him for the genocide he was a part in, and I would never have forgiven him.
Janet I completely agree wiht you. I too don't believe that Simon was in any postion to forgive Karl. I didn't think about if Karl had not been wounded if he would have regretted killing.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have gone back and forth multiple times, debating whether or not I would have forgiven Karl. I think there are many different ideas to support each argument, but overall I most likely would not have forgiven the dying SS man. I wholly agree with Harry James Cargas when he sates "Deathbed conversions are dramatic but in many instances the are too easy" (Cargas 125). When Cargas states this, I finally realized which side of the argument I was on, because I think that this statement is so true. Why did Karl have to wait until he himself was dying to seek forgiveness. Why didn't he feel the need to repent his wrongings sooner? It seems as though he was simply feeling sorry for himself, and needed someone to talk to. "He was sorry for himself. His words were bitter and resigned" (Wiesenthal 36). Maybe I'm being harsh, but if I had been stripped from my entire family and had to go through torturous acts, I wouldn't forgive any of the SS men even if they didn't directly hurt me. I think Simon did the most generous thing by neither accepting nor declining Karl's apology. Simon might not have been able to decide if he did the right or wrong thing his entire life, but I think that is better than being haunted by the wrong choice for the rest of his life. I don't know if I would have been as smart as Simon and have simply walked away from the dying SS man, but that is what I would want to do. I do not think that Karl deserves an answer just because he decides to finally apologize for his wrongdoings; I think it is perfectly fine for him to live the rest of his life with guilt.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. If my family was killed and I was tortured, I wouldn't forgive any SS men either. I liked your point that Simon might not be able to decide if he did the right or wrong thing, but it's better than having to deal with what he thought was the wrong choice his whole life. I'm not sure yet if I think that Simon did the right thing by walking away and not responding, but your point about Karl not deserving an answer was good, and I definitely got your argument.
DeleteAfter reading the story and coming across the last question, I must say that Mr. Wiesenthal still has lingering emotions, still querying wether or not he should have forgiven him, even after 20 years. It's not just the book's plot that shows so, but that he asked the question to the reader makes it that he wants to liberate himself from the past. In the symposium, Jean Amery stated "Politically, I do not want to hear anything on forgiveness! ...Why does it matter to me? For one simple reason: what you and I went through must not happen again, never, nowhere." (Amery 108) As blunt as his answer may be, it's still true. These days, we do not have to spend time over such trifles when we're working on preventing such an occurrence from ever happening.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why Mr. Wiesenthal wouldn't choose to forgive the dying SS soldier. After not only struggling to stay alive every day, but hearing this man's horrifying confession, it must have addled him even more, adding on to his reasons choosing not to forgive him. "He was confessing his crime to a man who perhaps tomorrow must die at the hands of these same murders." (Wiesenthal 53) The quote reflects what was going through Mr. Wiesenthal's mind In that situation, I wouldn't be able to forgive him. In that state, it must be almost impossible to forgive someone.
Reverting to my original thoughts, I still find the question pointless. Mr. Amery says that this case can be seen both politically and psychologically. Mr. Wiesenthal speaks to us psychologically, but Mr. Amery, as well as I, are looking at this case politically, and I see forgiveness as irrelevant in the topic.
Crystal, you made some fine points. Politically, forgiveness does not matter. What's done is done, and either way, the decision would be understandable. I also feel that Wiesenthal still has doubts-after all, he did ask this question, at least in part, to gain some reassurance towards his actions. Politically, it does not matter, but psychologically, this decision will haunt him for life.
DeleteWhen considering this problem, you must ask yourself two questions to determine whether Karl, or any other of Hitler's SS men, should ever be forgiven. One is up front and obvious. Does Karl deserve forgiveness? There is little evidence that he truly felt remorseful for the crimes he had committed. If he truly felt remorse, he would have searched for a priest and asked God for forgiveness himself. Karl states during his conversation to Wiesenthal, "Those Jews died quickly, they did not suffer as I do-" (Wiesenthal 52). This could be interpreted as Karl feeling sorry for himself, but the way I see it, this is one of the more selfish statements I have ever read. How can Karl claim to be remorseful when he is comparing his pain to that of 6 million? He can not, truthfully at least, say that he is genuinely remorseful and repentant when he has shown almost no sorrow for ending the lives of some 150 helpless and innocent Jews.
ReplyDeleteEven if you think Karl maybe, just maybe has earned forgiveness, you must ask yourself a second and more complicated question, one that involves theological questioning. If one was unlucky enough to be in this situation, you must say to yourself, "Do I have the right to forgive a sin committed against God?" For Karl's crime, like all other forms of murder, is not only a crime against the victim, but a crime upon the victim's creator, which, according to Judaism, is God. Harry James Cargas answers this question saying, "If God chooses to forgive Karl, that's God's affair" (Cargas 125). Cargas' answer is correct in this instance, because Simon forgiving Karl in the place of the people who perished would simply be wrong. Simon was not directly affected by Karl's crime, which means he can not forgive without the permission of those who died, which in this case, is impossible.
When I consider these two questions, my answers are simple. Karl did not deserve forgiveness, and neither you, I, nor Simon have any right to grant this forgiveness to Karl. Therefore, it is easy to say that I would not forgive Karl.
Dear Matt,
DeleteThe way that you wrote this was philosophical gold. Though I do not agree with you, you do make many valid points and you defend your argument well.
Matt that was really good, and one of the best ones I have seen from the side of not forgiving. Even though we have two completely different opionions on this, I see where you are coming from and it makes sense why you would say this. I totally repsect this answer.
DeleteMatt,
DeleteThis is fantastic. You covered all possible arguments made by anyone who wants to oppose you. I agree completely.
Dear Matt,
DeleteI like how the two questions you asked gave your response structure. They also made sense, and I agree with your answers. Karl's quote was perfect for your argument because once you've read it, you would never forgive Karl.
"I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed" (The Dalai Lama 129). This question is an extremely difficult question to ask yourself. I try to put myself in Simon's shoes, but I will never fully understand what it would be like in that situation because I have not experienced such horrible things like Simon has. If this happened to me, I would've forgiven Karl. The reason I would is because of this quote: "Obviously he was not born a murderer nor did he want to be a murderer. It was the Nazi's who made him kill defenseless people" (Wiesenthal 66). In the book, it said Karl was a good boy who grew up going to church. When he joined the Hitler Youth, he didn't know what he was getting into, and joining the SS sounded like a good idea at the moment. A lot of Nazi's killed Jews for no reason, and felt no compassion, but when Karl saw the family in the burning house it scarred him. This shows that Karl had compassion, and if he could he would've stopped it from happening. In the quote it is saying that Karl wasn't a bad person, he was in a bad situation and couldn't get out of it. I think Karl was a good person, and meant what he said when he was talking to Simon. He was dying and I don't see how you could not say anything to him. I would have forgiven Karl for what he had done.
ReplyDeleteBailey you make a good argument in that Karl wasn't a bad person he was just in a bad situation. Karl choose to join the Hitler youth,but he probably didn't know what he was getting himself into because he was so young. Although I do not agree with you, I can understand why Simon should forgive Karl.
DeleteBails, I completely agree with you on this one. I as well think that just because you've made bad decisions, doesn't make you a bad person. The quote I enjoyed reading in your statement that I thought backed up your point pretty nicely was "Obviously he was not born a murderer nor did he want to be a murderer. It was the Nazi's who made him kill defenseless people" (Wiesenthal 66). I feel like what people don't realize is that he wasn't joining the SS simply to kill, but here you clear that up. Really nice symposium, one of my favorites!
Delete"Forgetting is something that time alone takes care of, but forgiveness is an act of volition, and only the sufferer is qualified to make the decision." (Wiesenthal 97-98). I believe this quote from Simon shows that yes we can forget, but not always forgive. Also, Simon states, "I had no power to forgive him in the name of other people. What was he hoping to get from me?" (Wiesenthal 82). This quote goes to show Simon can’t speak for all the other Jews that were tortured and murdered in the holocaust. That this request by Karl is in fact too much to ask for from just one victim. Simon should not be expected to answer and in fact to have to listen to this pathetic man's cry of remorse. Simon along with his fellow Jewish community should not have to with stand only one dying, hopelessly guilty SS man's cry for help. I would also like to point out that more than likely there wasn't just one dying SS man's guilty plea he would have liked to get off his chest. So why should Karl get that opportunity when no one else did? The only sense of feeling I would have given Karl would have been pity. I believe everyone does make mistakes and will take several wrong turns in life that you might regret, but you learn from them. In the end you still have to live with your mistakes, and that second chances aren't always handed to you. This goes along with a passage in the symposium. “ The question for me is not whether he should have forgiven, but whether he could have done so. Was it in his power to forgive?” (Fleischner 139). This goes back to my statement I made about the fact that Simon can’t speak for all the Jews. He is one man that was randomly picked to carry a burden of whether he should grant a dying man’s wish to die in peace. Personally, to respond in silence and to leave the SS man without a response is equivalent to saying no to forgiveness. So what would I have done? I wouldn’t have forgiven. I would still have showed compassion and a sense of respect for Karl’s apologies, but that does not always in return earn forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the idea of how we can forget, but not always forgive. In fact, my perspective is the other way around. I believe that we should forgive, but never forget. If we forget, the inexorable mistake would certainly reoccur. However, I too would have felt pity for the dying SS man. I would have pitied him for wasting his life killing Jewish people instead of trying to seek justice.
DeleteForgiveness is a selfish decision every single one of us has to make in life. Some situation are much easier than others but not so much in Simon's case. "Since they did not believe in God they were not afraid of divine judgement. It was only earthly justice that they feared." (Weisenthal, 85). I chose this quote said by Simon because it is inaccurate on Karl's part. He was brainwashed and trained to not believe in God but he kept his faith. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked for the nurse to bring a jew, any jew that he could apologize to. Therefore, I would've bid him forgiveness. His actions were horrendous and unforgettable, but his apology was sincere and in my opinion, forgivable. Because Karl did in fact believe in God, but was looking for forgiveness from the people he actually disturbed in the physical world. I think Karl should've been granted forgiveness but I don't think Simon should forget the story that Karl told and the hell that he put those people through. "I believe that one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed." (Dalai Lama, 129). I completely relate to this quote because it is how I feel about the situation 100%. Forgiving is a choice while forgetting is a process. I process that in most cases will never be completed. Karl's crimes nor any of the Nazi soldier's crimes can ever be forgotten. They've carried through history through my generation on and will continue to carry for the many years ahead. But that doesn't mean these men can't be forgiven. Karl knew the crime he committed, confronted it, and was honest. He was also sincere and apologetic, therefore I would've forgiven but I wouldn't have ever forgotten what had happened nor would I forget what he put those innocent people through.
ReplyDeleteJordan, great job on the first sentence, you really got me into wanting to read on. I agree with you on how Karl was "brain-washed" into believeing that there was not a God but he still kept on believing.
DeleteJordan, you couldn't have said it any better! I feel as though the quotes you chose were very supportive to your argument! I agree with what you had to say here 100%... I too believe people should forgive what has been done to them, but not forget what it taught and showed them. Great job!
DeleteJordan, my own opinion, and what I wrote about was on the side of "don't forgive" but when I read your post it made me see how I could have written from the other side. I really liked your quotes like Lilly said especially the one from the Dali Lama.I like your sentance about the sincerity of Karls apology, and yuo overall writing style is really good!
DeleteWhen someone steps on your toes, do you forgive him? Yes. When someone accidently runs into you, do you forgive him? Yes. When someone knowingly packs a building full of Jews, sets the building on fire, and then shoots the people jumping from the windows, do you forgive him? NO! Karl one hundred percent deserved to die without being forgiven.
ReplyDeleteThere are many things that bother me about Karl’s “confession.” One, Karl is dying. There is no chance of him living, so the fact that he is confessing now on his deathbed, proves to me that while he might have been regretful of what he did, it wasn’t that hard for him to live with himself. The fact that he was dying was the sole reason he was confessing; he no longer had time to make up for his mistakes. Two, what could the forgiveness of one Jew, one who had not even been affected by Karl’s mistake, even do? Just because Karl felt bad about murdering a building full of people, doesn’t mean it could be justified by Simon’s forgiveness. “Here was a dying man-a murderer who did not want to be a murderer but who had been made into a murderer by a murderous ideology. He was confessing his crime to a man who perhaps tomorrow must die at the hands of these same murderers” (Wiesenthal 53). Wiesenthal said it perfectly; the next day Simon could have been murdered by the same group Karl was a part of. So Simon should have forgiven Karl, but if Karl was still alive and active, he could be killing Simon as well? The third and final thing that irritated me about Karl was that he had no right to ask Simon for forgiveness because there was no way Simon could have given it to him. Like Terence Prittie said, “To forgive this one SS man would mean, by implication, to forgive every other SS man who murdered, on his deathbed”(Prittie 234). It would mean to forgive the SS men who killed his parents, relatives, friends, and every member of his religion. Asking that of Simon was completely inappropriate and wrong.
If I were in Simon’s place, I would have hoped I would have been able to control myself and leave with out saying anything. I doubt I would have been able to listen to Karl’s whole confession. I would most likely interrupt Karl and just tell him upfront that in no way could or would I be able to forgive him because he had not personally murdered me, and it would be way too much to ask of me to forgive for the entire Jewish population.
Gennie I completely agree with you.I agree with you because you are right to what Simon should have done.You put well thought sayings in your response.Your quotes went along with the response and it went along with what you wanted to say about The Sunflower. All together this was a really great response.
DeleteGennie! YOur reponse was probably my favorite of the ones I read. I loved the way you started it with those everyday things that we forgive and then immediatly going to talk about the unspeakable things that Karl did. I also really liked your quotes. It was very very good! (:
DeleteFrom one perspective, I agree with you. I would never forgive for Karl. He most likely did not feel repentance for what he did during his actions, and he actually chose to do those actions. Karl confessed only to say that he was too weak to not submit into the Nazi regime. He was too fragile to oppose it in any form. Instead, he took place in it and killed some Jewish people (if not many). However, I would have forgiven for my personal sake and to move on. If I did not forgive for myself, Karl would remain in my head for forever.
DeleteGennie, that was harsh! Although your arguement was strong and your point valid, I don't agree with you on all levels. What right does Simon have to say no? Can he speak on behalf of all the Jews, even if he knew what Karl did was wrong?
DeleteWhen the book asked me to ask myself, "What would I have done", I had a definite answer. It was a definite no. All of the people who responded with a no brought up valid points, but for me you just can't forgive someone who took part in murdering millions. It comes down to who you really are as a person. To forgive someone who committed such crimes would be like cheering for them or praising them. Certainly forgiving is not praising, but when the crimes are so extreme forgiving them is as bad or even worse than praising regular crimes. Also another reason I would not forgive Karl is because I am not the person to. Abraham Heschel wrote a whole story about that idea, and he summed it up on page 171 by stating, "No one can forgive crimes committed against other people." Terrence Prittie also had that reason for not forgiving Karl and he related it to the story by saying, "A persecuted Jew could only forgive the wrongs done to him personally; he could not possibly forgive genocide"(Prittie 234). That means that by forgiving Karl on behalf of the people who jumped out of the burning building, I would be forgiving all the SS members on behalf of all Jews, and doing that would be treason against the Jewish faith. Prittie also brought up the point that the only reason Karl was confessing was because he was dying. I completely agree with that statement because I know that if Karl had lived, he would have continued on in being a part of the genocide. I think Karl's forgiveness was not sincere because it was a confession due to dire circumstances not due to repentance. Because of who I am and Prittie's and Heschel's reasons, I would not forgive Karl.
ReplyDeleteJack I agree that it would be a definite no as well. I think it is unbelieveable all the horrible things Karl did and the fact that he would even think of forgiveness is unbelievable. "A persecuted Jew could only forgive the wrongs done to him personally; he could not possibly forgive genocide"(Prittie 234). I really enjoyed that quote because I think it gives Simon a back up that what he did was the right thing and that he should not be worried about cause what Karl did was horrible!
DeleteThis is good. You got your point across, but there were some parts where you could have explained your thoughts with more depth. There were a few grammer errors, and there were parts where you could have combined sentences rather than just splitting them into two separate sentences. Your quotes supported your beliefs, and the wording was good. Nice work!
Delete"I feared at first, that you had really forgiven him. You would have had no right to do this in the name of people who had not authorized you to do so" (Wiesenthal 65). Karl was asking Simon to do something that was impossible. No one can forgive someone for what they did to another. No one can forgive burning a house full of Jews alive. No one can forgive what the mothers felt when they saw their child burning to death alongside them knowing that there was nothing they could do.
ReplyDeleteSimon could not grant this. It was a blessing to Karl that Simon stayed that long. I know that I would not have been able to do that. To sit there, next to a murderer, and listen to him describe the deaths of hundreds of people, in which he took part of, and not say anything is astonishing. I know my will power is not that strong. For me to sit there, listen to that story, and then forgive him? No. That would never happen.
"And now, at death's door, he pleads for forgiveness. That is, he asks for readmission into the human race. But his appeal is addressed to the wrong party. Those who arguably could grant forgiveness are no longer here; he murdered them" (Shachnow 242). This brings up the point that Karl would not be asking for forgiveness if it was not for the explosion. Karl would have continued killing if it were not for the explosion. This brings up another point; Karl thought that any Jew would be okay. Karl did not need to know who he was confessing to. As long as he was a Jew, it "counted" in his mind. This makes the matter impersonal and therefore means it was not a true confession. If Karl had known Simon and cared about him and was honestly confessing, I would have more sympathy toward him. That is not at all what happened. I agree with Bejski's point of view in which, Simon could not have done anything else. I know that I would not have been able to. I doubt I would have been able to do what Simon did.
I agree with Kate that it would be hard to stay and listen to the story of murder and then be asked to forgive him. i had never realized that Simon could leave. If I were Simon I would not be able to listen to the tragicness. If Karl did not have the bandage covering his eyes, it would have been even harder for me to stay.
DeleteKate, I really love how you included the emotions of the people in the burning house, like the mother and her child, instead of just what Karl was feeling. In the book, only what Karl was feeling was included, so I really like this aspect of your blog post. I agree with you that confessing to Simon was also very impersonal and just picking a random jew would not really have counted as a true, sincere apology.
DeleteI agree with you very much on this response. Once Karl had "confessed" to rounding the Jews into the house and burning them alive, my urge to leave this man to his own, solitary death would have grown exponentially. Simon was just a random Jew to Karl, and the fact that he revealed his story to Simon, not a priest or someone close to him, shows that he did not care who he told, so long as he was able to make himself feel better by confessing.
DeleteI agree that Simon's presence alone was a blessing to Karl, and that his actions cannot, ever be forgiven.
When thinking of this question, it is important to think of both sides of the story. You must think of the position that Karl put himself into just to get Simon to listen to his story. He obviously didn't go through that trouble of finding Simon to tell his story just so that he could get t off of his chest. He wanted to be forgiven. But, the question is, "Does he deserve it, or, Does Simon have the right to forgive him?" My answer to this two question can be clearly stated in this quote, "No one can forgive crimes committed against other people" (Abraham Joshua Heschel 170). Just to clarify my opinion, that is a no. I don't think that Simon should forgive Karl. It is just not his place to forgive for other people. He doesn't know what the other families might want or feel. It just isn't right. It's like if a robber steels form my mom, he doesn't ask me to forgive him for his wrong doing, he has to ask my mom. Same thing here, Simon can't forgive Karl because it isn't his place to, and I would have done the exact same thing.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Simon doesn't have the right to forgive Karl. If Simon forgives Karl that means Simon is answering also for the other jewish people and the person that were killed by the ss soldier. SImon can't and must not answer for them. I think human can't judge human.
DeleteEmily, I can understand where you're coming from but for Simon's own sanity, just think of how his mood would change. He most likely wouldn't be worrying about whether or not he should've forgiven Karl and so present in the past. You must forgive in order to begin the process of moving on. Simon was a survivor of the Holocaust and yet he still dwells about whether or not he should've forgiven Karl. But I do agree under some circumstances with the quote you wrote by Abraham Joshua Heschel.I very much respect your opinion and think you wrote how you feel very well.
Delete“Your dying SS man took part in the extermination, he knew very well what he was doing. He may come to terms with his God, if he believes in one, and may just as well die unconsoled. One can also say: What difference does it make? Let him rest in peace, in the name of God or of the Devil,”(Amery 107). If only Simon had this point of view while he was listening to Karl... Instead, Simon listened to his confession and could not bring himself to end it. He had to listen to stories of killing and death after all that had already happened to him. When Simon finally had enough of Karl's confession and tried to leave, Karl immediately said "Do stay, the nurse is waiting outside. Nobody will come in. I won't keep you much longer, but I still have something important to say..." Simon sits back down, and continues listening. I just don't understand how he did. How could a person bring himself to listen to a man like Karl? I can assure you that even listening to Karl at all would have been much more than what I would have done.
ReplyDeleteTo some a simple yes or no answer would be given to Simon wiesenthal's question without any thought. To me it is not as easy as that. At the start of the novel I quickly jumped to the side of forgiveness without putting myself in Simon's position. Simon was an innocent man who watch friends and an entire religion attempted to be washed away in front of his very eyes. For no reason. As I put myself in Simon's positon I soon realized that there was no way for I could forgive someone who did such horrific things to so many innocent people. Forgiveness like this can not be given in a split second. Many thoughts probably went through Simon's head and this book is evidence that these thoughts haunted him until the day he died. Moshe Bejski said it best in his response, “No matter what, regret never pardons crimes” (Bejski 117). What Bejski is trying to say is that once you have done something it stays there forever. You can not undo the terrible things you have done and in Karl's case he can not undo the lives he has taken. When Karl was talking about the horrible things he had done he said this We had our rifles ready to shoot down anyone who tried to escape from that blazing hell" (Wiesenthal 42). Karl was ready to kill anyone he could for no reason. He was going to kill any jew and he very well could've tried to kill Simon sometime during his SS days. With that being said there is no possible way I could could forgive Karl. Karl did unbearable things, things that no one should ever hear about, much less be involved with them first hand.
ReplyDeleteHarper
DeleteThis well put together piece. I also went to the forgiveness side without putting myself in Simon, but when I did I think that he should have forgiven Karl. I say this because without forgiveness you can get on with your life. For example in the book he gives Karl an answer and now he thinks of it every day.
I found it interesting how you tried to put yourself in the position of Simon. It was an interesting take about how Karl was a murderer, and i agree with you that he did unbarable things and should not have been forgiven. It was interesting to see how you took SImon being a free man and then just taken away to a camp and how Karl was a part of that process.
Delete“Just look at him, the dying SS officer while countless Jews are tortured and killed every hour.” (Wiesenthal, 62) This quote makes a really good point that I have brought up lately during class debates. Why would Simon even give Karl his time by listening to his plea. He was one of a small several SS men that died, comparing to the 6million that died over the time. I would not even give Karl the time of day. He obviously had had to killed people, and knew that what he was doing was wrong. I know that people will say no he was brainwashed and couldn’t really help what was going on. Well he could have. People cannot be physically made to do all the bad things. He had the time at some point to know that what was happening was bad. Heck even the helmet he wore had a skull with crossbones on it. If that doesn’t say something is up besides all the killings happening litterly in front of him or even by him. He must be blind or possessed.
ReplyDelete“Forgiveness would be appropriate within such circumstances.” (Brown, 122) This point really makes me mad. There should never be a level of wrongness. Doing something wrong is wrong and you should have the common sense to know that. I don’t think it would be appropriate for Simon to accept Karls oplogy because that means that he is also speaking on the half of all the Jews that Karl had killed and all other Jews getting killed or captured.
Dear Kootz,
DeleteI like how you open with a quote to draw the reader into Simon's dilemma. I could really picture the SS doing terrible things to innocent people. I like your second quote, and like you go on to add about the level of wrongness, how there is none. Well done Dakota
Kotz, I agree with what you said about the whole simon and karl incedent. I also like the quotes that you used in this blog post. My favorite part of your post is the part about the levels of wrongness. thi is a well written post.
Delete“To be forgiven is to feel the weight of the past lifted from our shoulders, to feel the stain of past wrongdoing washed away” (Kushner, 183). I think that this is a great and true quote because in the book of Matthew it talks about how you should forgive others and like Jesus forgives us for our sins. This quote from Kushner says to me that Forgiveness is more important to you than the person who is asking for forgiveness. If I was in Simon shoes based on this quote, I would have forgiven him because I would feel free from my problems and forget about some of the things Karl did. I would also forgive him because I think that everyone should be forgiven if they are truly sorry. The things that come into play is if Karl was actually sorry. I think that he was sorry because he confessed to regular person and not a priest. Usually people confessed with a priest but he took the time to ask for a Simon, which he has killed many of his kind. Because he did that, I think that he was very sincere when he tried to apologize.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I believe Karl was sincere with his apology. Even though Karl has killed many Jews or watch them die, he still deserved forgiveness. He should have forgiven Karl because he was truly sorry, and everyone deserves forgiveness. It's hard to put yourself in Simon's place, but how can he watch a dying man and not offer him forgiveness? Everyone should be forgiven.
DeleteYes, Ray! Everyone should be forgiven is they are truly sorry! I liked how you mentioned a priest. My personal view is that when you are truly sorry, you confess to yourself and others. When you confess to a priest, you try and say things just to be granted forgiveness. Although I think it's good to ask others for forgiveness, I believe that in this situation, Simon was not the right person to ask due to religious beliefs. The statement that I liked most that you made was "forgiveness is more important...than the person who is asking for forgiveness." I agree with that because forgiveness is simply beyond a person!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete“No one can forgive crimes committed against other people” (Heschel 171). I believe Simon was put in an impossible position by the dying SS man Karl. In my opinion there was no way Simon could forgive anyone, especially an SS man who has killed for the enjoyment, in the name of other people. The only possible way I maybe could've seen Karl forgiving the SS man was if the Holocaust was over, but since it wasn't he couldn't forgive him. It would have been too hard to forgive a man for killing, and then having to go back to seeing his comrades killing more and more every day. I thought it would have been wrong of Karl to forgive in the name of other deceased people. I agree with the Symposium that said Karl should have been asking God for forgiveness and to have mercy on his soul, not Karl. Therefore, Simon did the right thing in leaving the SS man without saying a word. Forgiving him would have been morally wrong because he wasn’t in a position to forgive, and telling the SS man that he didn’t forgive him would have made him die in agony, not peace. “But it would have been a terrible sin to burden your conscience with other people’s suffereing” (Wiesenthal 65). Although Simon thinks he has done a bad deed by not forgiving a dying man, he has actually don’t the right thing in my eyes because I think it’s impossible to forgive someone for someone else.
ReplyDeleteI like the point you have made. I think Simon did the right thing by leaving Karl with out saying a word. Simon was not in the position to be forgiving on behave of anyone. He did not deserve to die in peace or agony. I like your points in your paragraph and agree with them.
DeleteYou made a good point. The fact that you can't forgive some one for someone else. I would have not forgiven Karl either.
DeleteAs said by Theodore M. Hesburgh in his symposium, “Who am I to advise a person of another religion who has suffered incredibly more than I have? I would not ordinarily presume to do so, but I was requested to do so, so I do.” (Hesburgh,169) My view on forgiveness and should Karl be granted forgiveness is yes, but this is from a Catholic perspective. I have a God who sent his son Jesus to forgive people from their sins. He died on the cross with his last words being “forgive them father, for they do not know what they do.” Since God forgave us from our sins, we are to forgive others of their sins if they are truly sorry. I know that Karl was sorry because “when one is face to face with death one doesn’t lie.” (Wiesenthal, 82) However, this perspective is completely different from Simon’s. His religion does not believe in Jesus and the whole thing on forgiveness. With that being said, I don’t think Karl asked the right person. His ultimate judge is God and God would forgive him of his sins because he was truly sorry. My personal response is yes, I would forgive him, but it was wrong of Karl to ask forgivness from Simon assuming that Karl knew of the Jewish thoughts on forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. I don't think that Karl should have asked forgiveness from Simon, but if I was in Simon's place I would have forgiven him. We all have done something wrong, and all deserve forgiveness. God is his judge, and ultimately it is up to Him.
DeleteI agree with your response, but I personally know that if I was in Simon's place, in front of a man that had taken part in the mass killing of innocent Jews, I would have no remorse for Karl. I know that if Karl had repented to God, that he could be forgiven. It is a good thing to know that he was very sorry for what he had done, although that does not mean much.
Delete
ReplyDeleteThe Sunflower was a difficult book to complete for many reasons; The primary one being that I had a mental conflict with myself while I was reading the story. Simon is put through a difficult situation, and he has to choose whether to forgive or not forgive Karl, a nazi soldier, and murderer of Jews like himself. If I had been put in the same situation, I would have done exactly as he did, simply walk away.
While reading the Symposium, I found myself strongly agreeing with Matthew Fox. One of my favorite quotes from his entry is, “But Simon offered Karl a morally responsible and adult response. Silence. Be with your sin,” (Fox 145). I definitely agree with this quote, what Karl did was mature, and he didn't force himself to give meaningless forgiveness. Toward the end of the story, Josek tells Simon, “You had no right to forgive him, you could not forgive him, and it was quite right not to accept his things,” (Wiesenthal 75). I agree with Josek, and I feel like the family in the fire and other Jews whom Karl had killed were the only people with the right to forgive him. Simon hadn't gone through what they had, and he couldn't give their forgiveness simply because he is a Jew. It wouldn't be right to give him forgiveness, but it would have been immoral to tell a man on his deathbed that he would die unforgiven. Therefore, I believe that silence was the best option.
Grace I agree with you. Before reading your responce I thought that Simon was cruel for not saying anything back to Karl. Now I see where you are coming from in that silence was the best option.
DeleteI agree with you, and I love your first quote by Fox. I think Karl should have been asking God for forgiveness not Simon because Simon couldn;t forgive for other people. I like that Simon just left leaving the SS man with no answer. I'm not a heartless person; therefore, I think not saying yes would give him the minimum punishment that a murderer deserves, and I think not saying no would spare Karl sadder feelings right before he dies. It would've been easy for Simon to say, "No, how could I forgive a murderer?" but he didn't and I believe silence was the best answer anyone could have given Karl at that time.
DeleteSimon should forgive the SS soldier Karl. Karl could have a second chance. “Forgetting is something that time takes care of but forgiveness is an act of volition and only the sufferer is qualified to make the decision.”(97) I was moved by this quote because Forgiveness needs a huge courage and will. If people suffer from bad things the anger will stay in victim’s mind. The anger won’t disappear if nobody decide and make will to forgive.
ReplyDeletePeople sometimes make mistakes but if they notice that they were doing the wrong thing they can change their mind and do the right thing. Karl did the wrong thing, so for the guiltiness Karl have to do more good things than a normal person. If one doesn’t forgive another and the feeling grows, this will make like a war and many people would die. That causes more sadness and resentment. And that will connect the anger over generations. This must not happen. If Simon forgives Karl that maybe mean that the Jewish admit losing but if Simon doesn’t overcome the resentment will get bigger and bigger and it will be out of hand. People have to break the chain of negative and everyone’s hatred will get bigger. If the war happens Innocent people will lose their peaceful life. Simon need to focus on the future and don’t look back that often. However that doesn’t mean that forget.
“I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself mankind.”(The Dalai Lama 129) I agree with this quote because no one has right to not to forgive for good and let someone keep begging forgiveness and confession. I think everyone could have a chance to sin even though they don’t wish to. I know that it is extremely hard to forgive Karl but if Simon forgives, there will be many people that have been saved by Simon. Forgive for the future.
I think this is really good Masaki. I agree about how you feel towards Karl, and they way Simon should have acted. I used a similar quote to yours, and it explains a lot about forgiveness. Even though Karl has done some bad things in his life, he has the right to be forgiven because all of us have committed sins or done something bad. We all have the right to be forgiven.
DeleteThis post was nice because it had new ideas. When you talked about how hatred will only keep growing if we don't forgive, that was a great thought. I agree completely with your argument, and you could go even further and discuss how Karl was only trying to ask for his own forgiveness not the forgiveness of the entire Nazi party. Overall, I thought it was a great argument.
DeleteYou gave two very strong arguments and I think you did a good job explaning why he deserves to be forgiven. Where as I still disagree and think that Karl should not be forgiven your examples, and i especially like your last sentence "forgive for the future". It just all makes since when you put it into words like that. Well done.
DeleteI believe that if I was in Simon's situation at the time, which would be impossible for me to imagine because of how the personal experience would be much different than reading about these events, I would have made a decision quite similar to the one Simonhad made, “At last I made up my mind and without a word I left the room”. (Wiesenthal 55) I believe that in this situation in the death chamber with Karl, I would have been unable to forgive Karl because of how he had taken part in the holocaust the same as any of the other SS. Officers had, and there was no way of discerning the feel of regret from a genuine feeling Karl had, or if he only wanted to feel relief for his wrongdoings because he was close to his death. Though Karl's plea for forgiveness was very heartfelt and seemed genuine, I would have still felt unable to grant his forgiveness, because this would mean forgiving him and the other SS. Officers for what they had done, which I would not feel as if I had the right to forgive Karl and the other SS. officers for what he had done to the other Jews.
ReplyDeleteYou have some good stuff in here. What specifically about the holocaust would make you unable to forgive Karl? Was it the burning of the Jews?, or was it the overall insanity of the thought of mass murdering people? What Symposium author was you favorite? Do you have any relatives who were survivors of the holocaust? More cold hard facts. With all this your paper will become even better!
Delete“What would I have done?” (Wiesenthal 98) Because I was never in the Holocaust, nor have been extremely persecuted due to my religion or race, it was very hard for me to answer this question. If I was in Simon's position, I would not have forgiven him. I do not believe that Simon would have been in the right position to even consider forgiving Karl for his terrible deeds. Simon does not have the authority to forgive. “Who gave you the right to forgive our murderer?” (Wiesenthal 66) To Karl and the other Nazis, Simon was just another Jew waiting for his time to be killed, and that Simon was below them. So why would he be superior enough to forgive them?
ReplyDeleteI also believe that Simon would not be in the right position to forgive, because Karl has done no personal wrongdoing to him. “ A persecuted Jew could only forgive wrongs done to him personally; he could not forgive genocide.” (Prittie 234) Karl's asking for forgiveness from Simon seems unnecessary. Why hurt or kill someone, then ask for forgiveness to another? In my mind it makes no sense. They are not the same person. They react to things differently, and surely some of the Jews Karl burned would have different opinions about whether or not to forgive Karl.
What Karl should have done is apologize for his actions, then ask God for forgiveness, since he is the ultimate judge and those who he has killed is not longer here. For him to put that burden on Simon on his deathbed seems to me a selfish act to relieve his conscience. I think he did this thinking that a Jew would have pity on him since he is dying. He did not think that a Jew would have done what Simon did. I agree with Josek and Prittie in saying “... I would have done the same as you did.” (Wiesenthal 65), and “ By walking out of the room without a word, he did the most sensible, the most logical, basically the most decent thing possible.” (Prittie 234)
I completely agree with you. I never thought about how since the Nazis thought that Jews were subhuman that his forgiveness wouldn't be superior enough; that's a good point. But now that your brought it up, I see how that would be like Karl saying that he doesn't think that Jews are less human than he is anymore. I also think that it doesn't make sense to hurt or kill someone then ask forgiveness from someone else. Just because they're part of the same religion doesn't make them the same people. I never thought about saying it like that before, but I completely agree with you.
DeleteI agree what you said in this blog post and I enjoyed reading it. My favorite part of the post is the beginning where you talk about how Karl thought of Simon, like a jew waiting to die. That supports your opinion a lot. Also the end of the second part is really powerful about the jews that Karl burned in that fire and how they might of felt if simon would have forgiven Karl. Lastly, I like that you kind of gave Karl some advice about what he should of done; not just what simon should of done.
DeleteThere is no way to formulate a decisive response to this question, because I will never have experienced the experiences of the person Karl wanted forgiveness from: a Jew. However, that is taking the easy way-out, and if am commanded to make a decision in the face of my inexperience, there is no doubt in my mind as to what the answer to the question of forgiveness will be. I am not a religious girl. I have no faith; I am governed solely by logic and experience, and perhaps that is why I am unable to conceive the concept of forgiveness in the face of such inhumanity. That is not to say I don’t feel pity. “Here was a dying man—a murderer who did not want to be a murderer but who had been made into a murderer by a murderous ideology. He was confessing his crime to a man who perhaps tomorrow must die at the hands of these same murderers,” (Wiesenthal 53). No one is born with a knife in their hand and a mind set on murder, but as Moshe Bejski says, “No matter what, regret never pardons crimes,” (Wiesenthal 117). It is not nature vs. nurture, it is nature and nurture. Our experiences shape us, and that is why I, who lacks in experience and therefore could not begin to understand the depth of the crimes I was forgiving, could have never forgiven Karl, who experienced every single one of those crimes and still asked for forgiveness .
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading this! Short, sweet, and to the point. You were able to identify exactly what you would be feeling and wrote it out in an eloquent, well-written paragraph. Your vocabulary and figurative speech supported it as well, though I was hoping to see how you would use a quote from the symposium to support your beliefs. Overall, a truly, well-written paragraph!
DeleteThat was such a good argument. You recognized the fact that you could never experience what a Jew had, which I agree with, and then discussed further why you could still not forgive Karl. I also strongly agree with the fact that the feeling of pity for Karl is there because he is a dying man that seemed like he was in a position that he did not want to be in.
DeleteIt is very hard to imagine what it was like back then. I have never experienced anything like it therefor it is difficult to write as if I have. The question of "What would I have done?" (Weisenthal 98)varies widely in its responses. If I was in Karl's position it would be an easy decision for me. No, he would not be forgiven. It was not fair to Simon to be asked of such a grand request. He was not the one that had be shoved in a burning building to die. "According to Jewish tradition, even God Himself can only forgive sins committed against Himself, not against man" (Heschel 171). Karl needed to be asking God for forgiveness not Simon an innocent Jew. "Forgiveness is not something we may depend on others for. We must somehow earn it. Deathbed conversations are dramatic but in many instances they are too easy" (Cargas 125). Karl has nothing left to live for, so why not ask for forgiveness from a random Jew. He did nothing to earn his forgiveness he just expected it. I would not be supportive of forgiving Karl no matter how sincere he was being.
ReplyDeleteIn my life, I have never experienced anything close to what Simon or Karl went through. Although I haven't, I have an idea of what I would do if I was in Simon's place. I would forgive Karl for what he did. "To be forgiven is to feel the weight of the past lifted from our shoulders, to feel the stain of past wrongdoing washed away." (Kushner 183) Karl was on his deathbed, and his dying wish was for forgiveness to be granted by a jew so that he could rest in peace. Just as he had no right to commit the crimes he did, Simon had no right to deny a man his wish to rest in peace.
ReplyDeleteFrom Emily Wolff:
DeleteI liked how you expressed what you would do if you were in this situation and at the same time stating that you have no idea what it would be like becasue nothing like this has ever happened to you. It shows that you have an open mind about this situation and that you are open to seeing both sides. But, also think of the pressure that Simon was put under by this SS soldier. That kind of pressure is unthinkable, to be able to answer on behalf of all of the families this man has killed? I can't even imagine.
Even though you make a strong point, I disagree with you. Why does Karl have the option of dying in peace and the people that he killed do not? Thats a point that needs to me considered.
DeleteTerence Prittie said, "Men who are dying expect special consideration"(Prittie 233). I agree with Mr. Prittie under the circumstances of Simon and the SS officer Karl. Karl is asking much too much of Simon. He is asking not just for Simon to forgive him, but for the Jews as a people to forgive him. Although it is his dying wish, Simon never could have granted it. Simon does not have the authority to speak on behalf of the whole Jewish people.
ReplyDelete"Forgiveness is an act of volition, and only the sufferer is qualified to make the decision"(Wiesenthal 98). Although I believe Simon could not have forgiven Karl of his wrong doing, as apologetic as Karl may be, if Karl had done something specific to Simon, that only Karl had done, only then could he have the option of forgiveness. Karl did not have the authority to put the weight of forgiveness on Simon's shoulders to carry all these years. If I were in Simon Wiesenthal's shoes, I would have done as he did, and walked away with no reply. Even no apology is an answer he was not authorized to give.
I completely agree with this, but I especially love your last line! It's true, even no apology was an answer he was not authorized to give, so this puts Simon in an impossible and frankly unfair situation. No matter what decision he made or did not make, he would be plagued with doubt-I think that is the true crime that Karl has committed towards him.
DeleteI also agree with what you are saying, and I think that you brought up a good point by saying his not answering was still an answer. I had always thought of Simon leaving as the best way possible to leave the situation. Now that I have read this, I understand that by listening and staying through until the end, then leaving, was still an answer.
DeleteSimon Wiesenthal's situation was so unique that I had difficulty putting myself in his shoes. There is simply no way to imagine what life was like in the holocaust. In addition, so many arguments can be formed either for or against Simon's decision to silently exit the deathbed of Karl without granting his forgiveness. In short, knowing whether or not to forgive Karl was a mystery to me at first.
ReplyDeleteI decided that Simon should have forgiven Karl, but not because he knew for certain he deserved it. There is no way to know whether or not Karl is sincere in his pleads to Simon, but when Edward Flannery says, “The dying SS man did not ask him to speak in the name of all Jews… but only for what he had done” (Flannery 137) it had an immediate impact on me. It is not as if Karl could bring the entire Jewish community into his room to beg for forgiveness, so asking one Jew is fair compensation. Furthermore, Simon does not know Karl's story or any of his background other than what the SS officer discusses in his last moments. Karl was probably forced to join the SS, and if he was not directly forced, indirectly. Even if someone did not order him to become a Nazi, there was insurmountable pressure on young men those days to support Hitler. Otherwise, the boy, his family, and anyone associated with him would be shunned by society. Finally, Simon should have forgiven him because it is the right thing to do. One man did not start, continue, or end the holocaust. This man was dying and confessing to his awful deeds, and it is Simon's duty to respect this. Why should Simon become like the Nazis by disrespecting other humans involved with matters of death? There is no way of knowing if Karl was truly deserving of forgiveness, but if someone is in doubt in such a serious matter like this, the benefit of the doubt should be given.
"One man did not start, continue or end the holocaust" (Foley 1).This is a really insightful sentence. You need to state your opinion in the beginning of the paragraph and not change it halfway through. Your paper was very well written, and it could have been better if you were more assertive with your opinion. Overall it was a very well written and insightful piece.
DeleteDear Evan,
DeleteEven though I disagree with you on the fact that Karl should be forgiven, your response is very persuasive.
I liked how you dug deeper into the mystery of why Karl joined the SS. Also the benefit of the doubt ending was great.
Billy Dunn
ReplyDeleteMrs. Gahan
World Lit
10 September 2012
The depth and consideration to answer this particular question is beyond me. In my opinion i don't believe I have the right to respond to the question nor does it matter. But i was assigned the question so I will gladly give my input on the situation. When reading the various responses in the back of the book i found the most common theme was not answering the question and saying Karl's real forgiveness could only be given by god. I agree with this but I will specify. For me i can only give the answer no, i would not have forgiven the Nazi Soldier Karl. I feel that Karl's name cannot stand alone because we as a civilization need to be reminded of what he was, a Nazi soldier. My reasoning behind this lies with my belief that forgiveness is a gift, and forgiveness must be earned. Forgiveness isn't or shouldn't be handed out at someone's request. "To be forgiven is a miracle. It comes from God, and when God chooses to grant it, not when we order it up (Kushner 184). Harold Kushner and I share the same views on the matter. We both think that whether he or I were to forgive Karl, or even Simon for that matter, the forgiveness given would be irrelevant. In my opinion the person who seeks forgiveness should never ask for it but only have it granted to them. Karl did nothing to deserve this forgiveness and Simon had no right to forgive. The Nazi soldier Karl was only asking now because he was on his death bed and needed a way to clear his conscience before coming face to face with his god.
Forgiving anyone who took part in the Holocaust would be unfaithful to the memory of the millions of men, women and children who were tortured and murdered. Simon, by forgiving Karl, would be implying that the horrors Karl and the other SS soldiers committed could somehow be explained. Moshe Bejski wrote, "Such an act of mercy would have been a kind of betrayal and repudiation of the memory of millions of innocent victims who were unjustly murdered..." (Bejski 115). It would be as though there was some reason or purpose for what was a merciless genocide that will never be justified. The Holocaust must stand as a warning to the world of the ability of one group of people to deny the humanity of race of people they saw as different from themselves.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand, Simon saying he forgave Karl could be viewed as showing compassion for a dying man who now regretfully acknowledges the monstrous things he has done. But compassion in this case would not be deserved. Abraham Heschel said, "No one can forgive crimes committed against other people. " (171). I agree with Heschel, Simon did not have the right to forgive him.
Karl was inconsiderate for making Simon stay and listen to his story. Karl could have gotten Simon in trouble multiple times. The first time was when he took him away from his group; the second time was when he tried to give him his possessions. If the SS soldiers found his stuff, they probably would have said he stole it and killed him. Simon wrote, “She thrust the bundle at me but I refused to touch it” (Wiesenthal 74).
Maya, I really like how you pointed out the fact that Simon could have gotten in trouble if he was found with Karl's possessions. I never really thought about it that way, but now I realize that Karl could have gotten Simon killed for it. It was bad enough that Karl was asking for forgiveness while people he was associated with were torturing Simon, but that speaking with Karl could have put Simon in danger
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think that Karl should not be forgiven. No matter how much remorse he shows it doesn’t matter. In the end he chooses to kill all those people and he knew what he was getting into and there’s no excuse for what he did. No man that created such a crime should ever be forgiven. Karl was on his death bed I think any man would of asked for forgiveness once there sitting back realizing all that they have done. But no matter what he said I would never forgive him for killing someone. I can’t imagine what these people had to go through and I think it was horrible of Karl to even ask Simon for forgiveness. Simon can’t speak for all the people who were killed and that survived the holocaust. “I feared at first, that you had really forgiven him. You would have no right to do this in the name of people who had not authorized you to do so" (Wiesenthal 65). This quote shows that other people thought that experienced the holocaust that he shouldn’t have been forgiven. I believe that it would be a crime in its self for Simon to forgive Karl for the things he did.
ReplyDeleteThis was very well written. I agree with you. Simon shouldn't forgive Karl. Karl had no excuse for his actions.
DeleteI do not believe that Karl should have been forgiven by Simon. Rodger Kamenetz said "You saw him as a particular person, a human being. That is to your credit. If he had also reached the same point, the the conversation about forgiveness could begin." (Wiesenthal, 181)This quote really spoke to me because of how true it was, Karl thought of Simon as another Jew. Karl did not even ask for Simon's name, yet he expected Simon to forgive him for killing innocent people.Simon saw a person, a human with faults, feelings, and imperfections. Simon also saw a young man dying a slow painful death. Karl saw a random Jew, barely even human. No feeling, no thoughts, no pain. Karl Expected Simon, who he did not even know, to forgive the killings of millions of Jews. Not only can Karl not ask Simon because he did not know him, but it was not Simon's place to say anything. Someone's opinions and feelings can be affected by those around him, his mood, and many other factors that change from day to day, person to person. Karl should have asked for the forgiveness from those he hurt, killed, or even from god. One cannot forgive for actions done not against them. "I wanted her to fetch a Jewish prisoner to me" (Wiesenthal, 28)His quote really shows how impersonal Karl is about his forgiver. He cannot even see Simon yet he expects so much. I believe that Simon did more than expected and was extremely nice and thoughtful. If I was in Simon's place, I would not forgive him.
ReplyDeleteI have gone back and forth on my responce for some time now, but as of right now my final answer would be to not for give Karl. Like many other people have said what I agree wit Harry James Cargas' responce and especially his quote " Who am I to forgive?" (Cargas 125). It just astonished me how can this SS man who has never met simon before ask for his forgiveness. Can Simon grant permission for all the Jews and to a man who sees them as all the same? Simom has not even been directlty affected by this SS man as far as we know, why is he apologizing to him? All of the men who he did affect are dead now so he should have to take the possibility up with God, not Simon. I agree with Robert MaCafee Brown on his quote "God will forgive, that's what He's here for here for" (Brown 123).
ReplyDelete