Choose ONE sentence from any of the Symposium responses and respond to it in a thoughtful paragraph.
**One limitation: you must choose a sentence that no one else has yet posted on...be sure to read the responses before you choose your sentence in order to avoid duplication.
"For if we forgive, it will be a sign to those in the future that they can act without fear or punishment, and that the universe has a moral escape valve labeled "forgiveness" that permits evil not only to survive but to thrive"(McAfee Brown 121).
ReplyDeleteThis quote is one of my favorites from the Symposium because it clearly shows McAfee Brown's opinion of forgiveness. There is no arguing with his logic because he is not changing his mind, and forgiving is like allowing evil to exist. I don't necessarily agree, but I think that since this quote is so strong, it almost convinces me to believe him.
"Forgiveness is not something we may depend on others for. We must somehow earn it.Deathbead conversations are dramatic but in many instances they are too easy" (Harry Cargas 125)
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because it backs up one of our points from the debate. I think we should also consider if Karl deserved forgiveness. Karl did nothing except ask and expect in return. Karl did nothing to earn his forgiveness or even show how sorry he was. He just told his story and expected to get something in return for killing.You never know if Karl was just saying what he did because it was his last hope. This quote expresses how I feel about the situation so it is easy for me to relate to it.
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ReplyDeletehmmmm
Delete"It is a cardinal principle of Judeo-Christian ethics that forgiveness must always be granted to the sincerely repentant"(Edward Flannery 136). I love this quote because it is really trying to talk about forgiveness and when to forgive. I have to disagree with it because it does not apply to the Karl incident. He should not have been forgiven because Karl was on a killing rampage, so he should have stopped a long time ago.
ReplyDelete"Never Forget, Never Forgive"(Robert Mcafee Brown 121). This quote shapes my opinion of forgiveness. If we were to forget then the same terrible things would happen. If we forgive then they would find it morally ok to do it again. Brown's summary is the perfect example of how I feel about Karl being forgiven. Brown's summary is beautifully composed and has persuaded me to his thought on forgiveness.
ReplyDelete"Without forgettung there can be no forgiving" (Moshe Bejski 116)
ReplyDeleteThis quote by Bejski really describes anyone who was in the same position as Simon would think. The Holocaust should never be forgotten, and for that reason I think that any of the prisoners who have died because of the awful things the Nazis and SS men did would never forgive them. The survivors of the Holocaust will have to live with the memory of watching their friends, family, and own religion being killed, humiliated, starved and worked to death, so I believe that any Nazi or SS men should have to live with the regret of what they put and did to all the Jews.
"For if we forgive, it will be a sign to those in the future that they can act without fear of punishment, and that the universe has a moral escape valve labeled 'forgiveness' that permits evil not only to survive but to thrive" (McAFEE 121). This quote really describes the point of view from any of those ever trying to forgive. It shows that if we forgive something as awful as the holocost for those who ask for it that we are promoting future hate crimes. I love this quote because it is true. If we allow these Nazis to be forgiven it proves that things like the holocost will have reprocussions but years later they can be forgiven; which if you ask me is very wrong.
ReplyDeletegenevive did it first
Delete" I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against onself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed."(The Dalai Lama 129.)
ReplyDeleteThis quote is by far my favorite of the Symposium. I believe it involves everything that is key to forgiveness. You should forgive but not necessarily forget. In the Sunflower, I think that Simon should've forgiven Karl so that he could've died peacefully. Some would say he doesn't deserve to be forgiven. Karl felt shame everyday after he killed the inoccent family in the house. He was brainwashed, and wasn't fully aware what he was signing up for. The world would be a better place if everyone forgave.
"This forgivness is not for those who killed or who orchestrated mass murder and on their deathbed seek to put their minds at ease, but for those who truly feel a collective guilt for the heinous crimes the ethnic/political/religous "brothers" commited in the name of that "brotherhood"" (Alkalaj, 104) I thought this quote showed that the truth of the situation is never for certain. We don't know if Karl actually felt remorse because of his crimes or because he was dying. ALso we don't know if he actually did stop in the mortar field because of a vision or not. As a matter of fact we don't even know if Simon's story is true at all.
ReplyDeleteMy redo cause the one i did was already used:
ReplyDelete"--I do hope forgiven him and as an obstinate believer, suggested to him that he make his peace with god by asking for his forgiveness.." (FLANNERY 138). I like this quote as well because Flannery puts it in the point of view that not matter if SImon forgave Karl the final judgement would be with god. I agreed with Flannery and determined god was the final say if Karl could rest in peace. I enjoyed this point of view because it made the apology seem meaningless which was interesting.
"For a Jew to forgive the Nazis would not mean, God forbid, saying to them "What you did was understandable, I can understand what led you to do it and I don't hate you for it." "It would mean saying "What you did was thoroughly despicable and puts you outside the category of decent human beings. But I refuse to give you the power to define me as a victim. I refuse to let your blind hatred define the shape and content of my Jewishness. I don't hate you; I reject you." And then the Nazi would remain chained to his past and to his conscience, but the Jew would be free." (Kushner, 186). I know this is a long quote but he is making such good points in almost every sentence he says. He backs up both the yes you should've forgiven him side and the no you should not have forgiven him side. His opinions about what would happen to the Nazi if you do give him forgiveness is dead on. I think Simon should've forgiven Karl but saying some of the things that Langer. I think he should've forgiven but still make him feel guilty.
ReplyDelete"Who am I to advise a person of another religion who has suffered incredibly more than I have?" I really like this quote. Since I have no suffered as much as Simon, I cannot agree or disagree. Also, since I am of a different religion, I have my different views on forgiveness.
ReplyDelete"Had he not been mortally wounded, he would almost certainly have continued to commit these crimes, along with his comrades, who had volunteered for these assignments of their own free will and in large numbers, never regretting their actions, but rather justifying them by claiming that they had only been carrying out orders" (Bejski 113). This quote is talking about Karl, and I agree with this quote. Karl was only asking for forgiveness because he was about to die, and also because he had had lots of time to think about what he had done and gone through. As the quote says, Karl would have continued to kill innocent Jews if he had not been wounded so badly. I also think that after the war Karl would have still probably asked a Jew for forgiveness if he hadn't died, because he would have had lots of time to think after the war, but he would have used that he was carrying out orders as an excuse for forgiveness.
ReplyDelete"God will forgive, that's what He's here for." I like this quote because in my eyes it speaks the abosolute truth, Simon had no right to forgive for all of the Jews the suffered through the holocaust.
ReplyDelete"You're not hurting him by holding on to that resentment, but you're hurting yourself" (Langer 186)
ReplyDeleteI agree that Simon should have told Karl that he forgives him because then he would die in peace. Simon could tell himself that he never really forgave Karl, that he was doing him a favor by letting him hear what he wanted because he was dying. Because Simon said nothing to Karl, and he is still holding on to him and thinking about him, Simon is obviously unsettled by the answer he gave Karl. Karl can not be hurt any more while dying on his death bed, so Simon should not have worried about hurting him or giving him the wrong answer. Simon has obviously not reached closure with his decision, and is regretting what he told (or didn't tell) Karl. Simon could go to Karl's grave and ask and tell him that he forgives him, jut for Simon's mind to be at rest.
"No one, no memory, should have the power to hold us down, to deny us peace. Forgiving is the real power." -Jose Hobday page 175 I love this quote and I feel it expresses my view on forgiveness. Forgiveness isn't just based upon religion, yet it it based upon the urge to lift burdens off of your shoulders and live free with humanity. People make mistakes regardless of their background, personality, or culture. You aren't human without fault, but forgiveness is there to take away your pain/bad history and allow you to learn, and move on. Forgiveness is key to a settle and happy life.
ReplyDeleteI agree!
Delete"He allowed himself to be changed into a foul beast who did the unforgivable. He gave up his moral life -his soul- to his leader and his state. He believed it when he was told that his victims were less than animals and that he was a superior being who was obligated to torture and annihilate them. What he did was the ultimate and irreversible denial of his humanity" (Shachnow 242).
ReplyDeleteI agree with this quote because it shows the sheer power of propaganda, and how it is able to be used to form this kind of hatred where those involved instantaneously comply. The inhuman perception of the Jews that is created when this type of atrocity begins to develop is the driving force behind the psychological states of the officers because they believe what they are doing is for a better cause: to realize the vision of the Fürher. Karl's request for forgiveness is almost absurd when examined from this perspective because, after all the atrocities committed against millions of innocent victims, one remorseful officer asks for the annulment of the sins in which he partook.
“the blood of the innocent cries forever” (Susannah Heschel 173)
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because the phrase of the innocent cries forever is a really strong impact and gives me deep sympathy.
"No one can forgive crimes committed against other people. It is therefore preposterous to assume that anybody alive can extend forgiveness for the suffering of any one of the six million people who perished" (Abraham Heschel 171).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me simply because of how true it it is. It also throws into light how ridiculous it is for Karl to expect one jew to forgive in the place of the millions who had already died. Karl was asking for something that no human could possibly give him, and he got what he deserved.
"He had sinned against the principles of humanity far more than he had sinned against a handful of doomed human beings," (Prittie 234). This quote baffles me because it is sickening if thought about. Basically, Prittie is saying that Karl did not do the Jews wrong when he slaughtered them, but he went against the morals that were set by his Creator and should solely ask for forgiveness from his God. Maybe this is part of the reason the holocaust started in the first place, due to misguided views such as Prittie's. People are people; it doesn't make a difference who you believe Karl was sinning "for," he still murdered many innocent people. In this regard, I believe Karl did the right thing by asking specifically for a Jew to tell his story to. Although I do not agree that Karl should have been forgiven, he did owe his life to the Jewish community as well as the God he believes in, not solely his Creator.
ReplyDelete"Should it be "seven times"? Speaking out of his Jewish tradition, his(Jesus)answer was, "Seventy times seven times"-a metaphorical way of saying 'always'"(Flannery 137). When I read this quote, it gave me a strong foundation of what I believe in. From the beginning I believed that forgiveness is the key for perfect peace. This quote confirmed it when Jesus said that we should always forgive, no matter how terrible the doing is because in the end we have all made mistakes, and we would all like to have a second chance when we need it.
ReplyDelete"His plea for forgiveness was addressed to someone who lacked the power (let alone the right) to grant it. If he wanted to die feeling forgiven, he should have said to himself: "What I did was terribly wrong and I am ashamed of myself for having done it. I reject that part of myself that could have done such a thing. I don't want to be a person who would do such a thing," (Kushner 183). I strongly agree with this quote. Simon had no right to grant Karl forgiveness. For Karl to truly be forgiven, he would first have to change his morals, and decide that he was no longer someone who would do such a thing. He would first have to look inside himself, then ask his God to be forgiven.
ReplyDelete"Men who are dying expect special consideration."(Prittie 233). Prittie is exactly right. Karl thought that because he was dying and confessing Simon would have forgiven him. He thought he deserved special treatment from a jew because he was dying. This quote is for more than just the Holocaust. Any dying person thinks everyone should do what they ask. Also I think this quote exemplifies how pitiful Karl's "mock-confession" was. Like any other dying man Karl thought he deserved more than he actually did, forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteThe few lines before Matt's quote are great too.
"I am afraid not to forgive because I fear not to be forgiven." (Cargas 124) I agree completely with this quote. I believe what goes around comes back around and that you should forgive people in the same way you would want to be forgiven.
ReplyDelete"A persecuted Jew could only forgive wrongs done to him personally; he could not possibly forgive genocide." (Prittie 234). I chose to write about this quote because it sums up my understandings of forgiveness. Karl was not right to ask for forgivness from a Jew to think that it will count as forgiveness from those he had burned to ashes. They are not the SAME people/person. Everyone reacts to things differently and has different views. I believe that if you had done some wrongdoing to another, you should go ask forgiveness from THEM, not some random person who had nothing to do with your situation. Unfortunately for Karl, he did not have that option, for those he had done that awful deed to is dead. Never to come back. I agree with Prittie that Karl should have asked God, who I believe is the ultimate judge, for forgiveness.
ReplyDelete"This was Simon's compassion, to stay and listen and even to remain silent and refuse to offer cheap forgiveness to so heinous a crime" (Matthew Fox 146). I think this quote is really smart and Fox is exactly right. Simon stayed and listened to Karl, even held his hand. As Karl told more of his story, Simon wanted to leave more and more, but he stayed, and allowed Karl to tell his story and express his regret before he died. I think that doing this was enough and more than can be expected of him. And if Simon did forgive him, I agree with Fox that it would have been cheap and not enough for the terrible things that Karl did. He obviously committed awful crimes, and those crimes might have been too big for Simon to forgive. Some things are too bad for forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteForgiveness is not some nebulous thing. It is practical politics. Without orgiveness, there is no future. (tutu 268) The first thing I want to say is that I feel like people think extremely highly of themselves whenever asked to be forgiven. They act like so supreme being who is able to control the fate of another, and they do. Simon by refusing forgiveness simply another act of superhuman versus subhuman. I agree what he went through was terrible, what karl did helped in those terrible things. But Simon needs to realizes that there is a difference between justice, and forgivness. Simon thinks it is just to not forgive, he is wrong. It is just to prosecute those who have time left in their lives, but not to deny young man a peaceful death.
ReplyDelete"Such an act of mercy would have been a kind of betrayal and repudiation of the memory of millions of innocent victims who were unjustly murdered..." (Bejski 115). I agree with this quote one-hundred percent. Forgiving the soldiers who took part in the Holocaust would also have been disrespectful to the families of the victims and the survivors who are still alive today. Simon would have been implying that everything Karl and the other SS soldiers did was okay and didn't matter. And, Simon also would have been saying it never happened. Even though saying he forgave him would have been the "nice" thing to do, the SS soldier did not deserve it nor did Simon have the right to forgive him. Abraham Heschel said, "No one can forgive crimes committed against other people. " (171).
ReplyDelete"Forgiveness is not some nebulous thing. It is Practical Politics.Without forgiveness there is no future" (Tutu 268). Desmond Tutu said this about simon's decision and I agree. What Tutu is trying to say is that forgiveness isn't like this mysterious riddle that you have to solve either you forgive or you don't. I agree in the fact that simon should of either said "yes I forgive you," or just said "No forget you." I also feel that it was spiteful to karl because he won't be able to die in peace. I know when I ask for forgiveness not saying anything at all is worse than actually saying no.
ReplyDelete"Can considerations and behaviors be analyzed after so many years and under conditions of peace and well-being, which include the ability to overcome the spontaneous emotions caused by the unexpected events? Or perhaps the distance of time and different conditions makes it difficult, if not impossible, to examine what the appropriate behavior should have been given the emotional state, the severe mental pressure, and the circumstances, which cannot be reproduced because they have never existed before and because the human mind has never invented anything like them." (Moche Bejski, 112)
ReplyDeleteThis is the best question that I have ever considered about this book. Bejski basically asks does time help or hurt the decision; in other words if Simon had more time to think it over (the forgiveness of the SS man) would he have made a better decision, in which helped him to stop thinking about it? Or maybe even a completely different one? I think that if he had time to think about it he would have forgave him. It was all in the moment; I mean how could he not hate a man who has devoted his life to killing millions of his race at that time? He was still in the concentration camp and planned to die there too. That man symbolized the death of his family, the job that was taken from him, emotions and the feeling of happiness, and FREEDOM: pretty much they took away his whole life. So how could he forgive them? Whereas if time went by and he could have made the decision after he was out of the camp or maybe 20 years from then, I bet it would have been a different one.
I believe one should forgive the person or persons who have committed atrocities against oneself and mankind. But this does not necessarily mean one should forget about the atrocities committed. (Dalai Lama 129)
ReplyDeleteThis statement is almost verbatim to what I was thinking at the end of this book. The forgive but don't forget motto has been around the Jews forever. Maybe some people forgot that
g-d was still there, because Simon was convinced that g-d left, so why forgive right? It's simple; we have been open to apologies for thousands of years? Why should we change while we are at our weakest?
"Forgiveness would be appropriate within the circumstances."(Robert McAfee Brown 122)
ReplyDeleteThis statement is giving wrongness a bar scale, and if its up high forgiveness is given, but if its low its not. I don't think that there should be a scale of how wrong something is, if its wrong its wrong, point blank.
"Does not watching the dying Nazi pleading for mercy in his final agony fit within his description of inhumanity?" (Flannery 137)
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me SO mad on so many different levels. Why in the world does Flannery think that not letting one Nazi who, may I remind you, was a terrible person (as shown by the fact that he volunteered for the SS and killed tons of people), live happily for one more day has ANY right to consider itself equal to all the horrible things the Nazis (including this very man) did to his kind? Karl did some bad things, and should not be forgiven for them! Too bad for him, he should have thought about it before partaking in genocide.
"And now, at death's door, he pleads for forgiveness. That is, he asks for readmission into the human race. But his appeal is addressed to the wrong party. Those who arguably could grant forgiveness are no longer here; he murdered them" (Shachnow 242).
ReplyDeleteThis addresses the fact that Simon does not have the right to forgive Karl. I believe this quote word-for-word. Simon should not have forgiven him, even if he had the right to. This quote brings up good questions too. How does someone leave the human race in the first place? How can someone be brought to that? When is acceptable to allow them back in? Is it even acceptable at all?
"Those of us who have been in battle know that war merely amplifies and exaggerates the good an evil we have inside us. War stimulates courage and the tender emotions we feel for our comrades. At the same time, because it is inhuman, war endangers our humanity." (Shachnow 241) I think this describes how Karl is. I think Karl Was a good person who was Involved in an evil thing that he had no control over. Karl wasn't a horrible person and you can tell in the book because he was so scarred from when he saw the family in the burning house. This showed that Karl had feelings and emotions. I believe Karl should've been forgiven for what he had done because I truly think he was sorry for what he had done, and was ashamed of what he was involved in.
ReplyDelete"There can be no counter-argument against forgiveness in such a case, or indeed against a reconciliation based on pity"(Sperber 249)
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with what Sperber is saying. Forgiveness is always the right answer. Without forgiveness you can not move forward. By holding a grudge nothing can be gained but anger, and dismay. Sometimes the best way is to just forget about something in move on. It may take awhile to make the decision to forgive but it must be done. There is no counter-argument against forgiveness.
"In fact, one should be aware and remember these experiences so that efforts can be made to check the reoccurrence of such atrocities in the future." (Lama 129)
ReplyDeleteI think this quote by the Dalai Lama speaks to the moral of this story more than the specific situation. The Dalai Lama explains how a victim should be forgiving for what someone else has done to them, while remembering there actions to be ready and to speculate the person's actions in the future, to prevent them from happening again.
"Men who are dying expect special consideration" (Terrence Prittie 233). I really like this quote because I think if Karl wasn't dying he would have still been killing, willingly or not. I don't think he would have "reconnected" with his christianity if he wasn't dying. Therefore, he can't expect a random Jew, Simon, to forgive his wrongdoings that he commmitted against other people. Karl should've asked God for forgiveness not Simon because the only mortal people that could've forgiven him was the family he helped kill.
ReplyDelete"But how can forgiveness be asked of someone whose death sentence will soon be carried out by the dying man's partners in crime, who are part of the same regime, when the dying person himself admits that he too has been committing these same crimes against the Jewish people and was only stopped when the hand of God overtook him." (Moshe Bejski)
ReplyDeleteI completely and fully agree with this statement. Karl was asking forgiveness of someone who likely could have been killed minutes after walking outside by someone that Karl worked with. In my opinion, Karl feels sorry for himself and that although he might feel bad about what he did, his only goal was to come clean. He took a step too far. I think Bejski's quote said it perfectly here. Some people said that you must forgive because that is what is asked of you, but this situation was impossible to respond to. Karl only wanted his guilty conscience to be put at ease.
" The question, for me is not whether he should have forgiven, but whether it is in his power?" (Fleischner 139) I agree with Fleschner. I feel as though he never really had a choice to forgive Karl or not. If he did decide to respond he would be speaking on behalf of the entire jewish community during the holocauset, and I believe that it was not up to him to make this decision on his own. i think god would of given him the answer to grant karl with, and yet he didn't. I think Simon did the right thing as to not say anything atall.
ReplyDelete"Borge responded, 'My punishment is to forgive you." (Brown 123)
ReplyDeleteI chose this sentence because I thought it represented mercy well. The fact is that this man chose to have mercy on his torturer is great, and I think that he made that decision because he knew that his torturer is a human too. Humans make mistakes. This is why I am glad that he realized that he should not take revenge, and just move on.
I think Kushner did the right thing when he said, "'I'm asking you to forgive because he doesn't deserve the power to live in your head and turn you into a bitter, angry woman.'" (Kushner)
ReplyDeleteI think forgiving is more of personal thing, not something for the "forgivee." Forgiving is more for moving on personally, and to help keep one from being held back. Forgiving is not always saying that you want to agree with or help the enemy. Forgiving can make the enemy feel even worse because he/she is outside of the forgiver and he/she will have his/her thoughts to his/herself. In some cases though, one can forgive for another person when that other person is in sincere guilt, and has reprimanded themselves.
"Forgiveness, like any apparently virtuous act, can be misunderstood, including by the forgiver." (Cargas 125).
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with this quote, because we, as humans, feel our emotions acutely, but understanding them, or even worse, vocalizing them, is a completely different story. The forgiver cannot crack open the skull of the one asking for forgiveness and delve in to their brain. They cannot feel the same emotions that the one asking for forgiveness is feeling. That's really important, because in order to forgive something, you have to know exactly what you are forgiving, or else it is a false sense of resolution.
"We have to remember that the sin that so shook up Karl the SS man, his observing and participating in the slaughter of innocents in a torched house, was not his only sin. It was a nightmare that kept him awake at night, but it was but it was by no means his only sin," (Matthew Fox, 144).
ReplyDeleteI would say that this quote shows what I was thinking, especially during the debate. The SS had a bad reputation for doing awful things, but he volunteered for it. He should have expected this. Before you say that you would forgive Karl, you have to remember that he has committed many other crimes that he doesn't describe to Simon; he would have done more than just shooting people trying to escape from a burning building. Karl may have been on the battle field thinking about the murder of 300 Jews in the burning house, but a point was made in our discussion that Karl stopped in battle to think about it, and then was mortally wounded, which shows he was truly sorry for what he did, since he took his attention away from himself to think about what awful things he has done.. What actually happened was that Karl continued on fighting for weeks, as it says on page 51. It was then, once he reached Taganron, that he was wounded. He said that there was constant artillery fire, so he could have been hit anyways, and he even said that they were drinking heavily, so there is a possibility that it wasn't the thought of the family that stopped him, but his own stupidity from drinking during a battle to get rid of his fear. Fox also describes later in the passage how Simon had no right to forgive Karl for lives that he personally took. The people who can forgive him are gone, so God is left to judge Karl. However, I think that it is easy for people like us to say that we would have forgiven Karl, as most of us haven't been in a situation like the Holocaust or anything remotely similar, so we can't truly feel the extreme pain and suffering of those people in the Death Camps or the victims of the SS. Imagine one of the other crimes that Karl did was to you or your family and friends. Imagine if Karl tore away your brother or sister or parent from your arms, to be thrown into a fire, or lined up and shot, and all you could do was watch them die. Can you honestly say that after being taken away from your family and friends by the group that Karl is in, with most of them dead by dying slow, horrible deaths, that you could forgive him?
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ReplyDeleteTo be forgiven is a miracle. It comes from God, and it comes when God chooses to grant it, not when we order it up." (Harold S. Kushner)
ReplyDeleteI agree with this statement,because Karl shouldn't have excepted Simon to have forgiven him on behalf of all Jews. Since all the people Karl has wronged are dead the only person who can forgive him is God. Eventhough Simon is a Jew he doesn't represent all Jews. If Simon would have responded to Karl's plea he would have ended up disappointing someone.
"Forgiving and forgetting are two separate acts. One should forgive-not out of altruism but out of the need to be free to get on with one's life-but we ought not forget." (Matthew Fox, pg. 148). I agree with Fox because there is two sides of forgiveness. In what I think is that not forgiving is that you think about that statement where you didn't forgive. Sometimes there is a reason for not forgiving a person to what they did in the past. The other side is forgiving saying that there are sometimes where you can because of what they did in the past on what their actions were if it was really an accident. Also agreeing with Fox is that Simon didn't forgive Karl do to his actions, but he will never forget how this has not only affected his life but Karl's life too.
ReplyDelete"For me the question is not can we forgive Karl or should we forgive Karl, but dare we do so?" (Harry James Cargas)
ReplyDeleteI agree and like this quote because it questions if we have the authority to do something greater than ourselves. Does Simon have the right to represent the Jewish people and forgive Karl? There might have be people in the world that would not have wanted Simon to forgive him, myself included.This line shows how we have to think of others before we make a decision think of how others might feel.
"The Survivors had been sentenced to bear the pain and sadness to the grave. Without forgetting there can be no forgiving." (Moshe Bejski, 116)
ReplyDeleteTo me this statement is saying some things, such as the holocaust, are unforgettable. SInce we can not forget these things/people there is no way we can forgive these people. I agree with this because it makes a lot of sense. A lot of the other peoples stories discuss the idea that forgiving is being able to move on and let go. I remember Kushner talked about how forgiveness is "letting go of the role of victim," (Kushner,186). I feel like this is wrong though because you can't let go of something as disturbing and evil as the holocaust. Some things are unforgettable therefore unforgettable.
"To be forgiven is to feel free to step into the future unburdened by the precedent of who we have been and what we have done in previous times" (Kushner 184).
ReplyDeleteI believe that Kushner is completely correct, and I believe that Karl does not deserve this unburdened feeling brought on by forgiveness at all. Karl knew exactly what he was doing when he performed the various atrocities mentioned in the book, and for this reason, Karl should not be offered a chance to get the large burden off of his shoulders.
The theme is clear: Never forget, never forgive. (Brown, 121) I think what he's dating is right. If its bad enough that you can't forget than it shouldn't be forgiven.
ReplyDelete"The Fact that Wiesenthal and his fellow prisoners debated the question of forgiving Karl is more than we have the right to expect them to" (Halevi 163).
ReplyDeleteI think that Karl put more of a burden on Simon than he realized. Holding someones dying wish in your hands is a lot to take on. Simon is so torn so many years later that he writes this book, and asks that others answer Karl's question. To forgive of not to forgive.
"You yourself saw him as a particular person, a human being. that is to your credit. If he had also reached the same point, then the conversation about forgiveness could begin." (Kamenetz, 181)
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because of how true it is. Simon saw Karl a a person, a human being, with unique feelings and thoughts. Karl saw Simon as another Jew. Without mutual respect and understanding, I do not think Simon could forgive Karl.
"Politically, I do not want to hear anything of forgiveness! I believe that you, who have devoted your life to investigating the political realm of Nazi crimes, will understand my position. Why does it matter to me? For one simple reason: what you and I went through must not happen again, never, nowhere." (Jean Amery 109)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this, I was thinking 'THANK YOU VERY MUCH!'. Call me disrespective, but It is quite about time that I hear someone say this (or write in our case). The Holocaust was a horrible event, and we all shouldn't forget it, but there's no need to linger on these emotions anymore, and certainly no need to ask ourselves such a difficult question if we're not going to face such a situation (by 'we' I mean humanity as whole). I can understand why Mr. Wisenthal would write this book if he is trying to relieve himself of these memories and to have others understand his situation and why he did what he did, but I feel like Mr. Amery, when replying to the book's question, is telling him 'to stop bugging people with such a question if it's not going to do us any good in the future'.
Forgiveness is the reason or motive to evade or mitigate the guilt, when Karl asks forgiveness he's not just asking for forgiveness for the people he killed, but for the entire Holocaust, not on the hand of a person just excuse it or not, I guess Karl asked that only because he was dying, and he was pardoned could die in peace of mind, then I agree totally with citation of Shachnow "Karl managed to overcome the voice within him that said a person cannot murder innocent men, women, and children and still call himself a human being. He allowed himself to be changed into a full beast who did the unforgivable, He gave up his moral life- his soul-to his leader and his state" (Shachnow 242) Karl knew all along that was oque doing was wrong, and so he was trying to die in peace, without having given this chance to their victims.
ReplyDeleteFrom Simran:
ReplyDeleteNo one can forgive crimes committed against other people. (Abraham Joshua Heschel 171)." From what I understand about this quote, Heschel is saying a few things. Karl did not deserve forgiveness, and Simon did the right thing. I interpreted this quote as saying you cannot forgive someone on behalf of another, in this case millions of people. I really like this quote because it backs up what the "No forgiveness" side in our class debate was saying: How can Karl dare seek forgiveness from one of hundreds of lives he impacted.
"Forgiving is not something we do for another person, as the Nazi asked Wiesenthal to do for him. Forgiving happens inside us. It represents a letting go of the sense of grievance, and perhaps most importantly a letting go of the role of victim" (Langer 186).
ReplyDeleteI really liked everything that Lawrence L. Langer said in his repsonse to Simon Wiesenthal, so it was hard to narrow his response down to one quote. To me, the quote I chose sums up the entire reason Simon could not part with the memory of Karl, the dying SS man. I, in no way, think that Simon should have forgiven what the dying Nazi did, but I do think he should have completely blocked him out of his life. Like Langer said, Simon should let go of his grievance because he isn't hurting anyone else but himself.
Whoops! For some reason I was looking at the wrong author, I meant Harold S. Kushner!
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